How to: Detect stealthers with skill alone!

[Cornuto]

The highest hide and MS I've seen has been in the high 60's or low 70's. Quite frankly, thats just silly, but so is a listen and spot of 60's and 70's.

Being able to hide real good is silly when compared to summoning clouds of lightning and acid rain that only hits people you don't like, being able to shift into another plane of existence, being able to call down a flaming rain of comets, or tearing a portal to hell and dragging forth a devil to do your bidding?

Stealthers gonna stealth, there's way more silly stuff going on.

[TakenByTheStormX]

<3 Cornuto.

Also: pretendy fun time.

[Gamling]

And let's say worst case scenario a rogue has a stealth so high you can't see him. Ok... so, he stealths up to you and sneak attacks you and does damage. You turn around and crit punch his face into his ass.

Why not let them be good at what they're good at and let it be? There's already a lot of countermeasures in place, granted, not given to the right classes.

[Philosopher]

Being able to hide real good is silly when compared to summoning clouds of lightning and acid rain that only hits people you don't like, being able to shift into another plane of existence, being able to call down a flaming rain of comets, or tearing a portal to hell and dragging forth a devil to do your bidding?

Stealthers gonna stealth, there's way more silly stuff going on.

Oh don't misunderstand! I'd rather have stealthers with these benefits than not. Rogue's stealth is powerful, but not so powerful as to be utterly game-breaking like a few spells I can think of. If you put 23 ranks into any skill, you should reap the rewards of spending your points. I just don't think a single spell should negate that. But that's already been addressed elsewhere.

[The Butcher]

That elf feat should be removed for all I care. The ability to spot/hear stealthers should not be geared towards munchkinned elves rolling 20's.

It is not. I just list the ways to max out your listen/spot without having to be in a faction. In a lot of the cases, you can forgo a few feats, races, mix in some PrCs, and still be able to detect them.

[crazyjerren]

Used to be (back in Epic Level Handbook days) a listen check of DC 65 left you listening to people's thoughts...

And a balance check of DC 100 made you walk on clouds!

Anyway, thanks for the number grind!

Also of note: Ranger's get a 1 + 1/5 levels, basically, to their spot/listen against their favored enemies. And the feat Blooded gives +2 spot.

[Kaeldorn]

If you put 23 ranks into any skill, you should reap the rewards of spending your points

That's just the thing with spot and listen. They're practically useless unless you also spend feats, get gear, and are an elf. Hence hardly anybody makes spot/listen focused characters; there's no place for 'normal' characters.

Why not let them be good at what they're good at and let it be? There's already a lot of countermeasures in place, granted, not given to the right classes.

Name them. Only one I can think of that is dependable and doesn't require metagaming or rogues being good sports about the limits of stealth (haha...) is Zone of Revelation.

Also, whether or not a rogue can kill a cleric using stealth is not really the issue. It's that a stealther can go wherever he pleases without any risk of detection by other PC's in RP situations so long as he doesn't willingly give himself away. And with exception of a few spells to improve perception skill for a short time, they can get away from pretty much anything as well.

It is not. I just list the ways to max out your listen/spot without having to be in a faction. In a lot of the cases, you can forgo a few feats, races, mix in some PrCs, and still be able to detect them.

In case of those 60+ skill characters, no you can't.

[Gamling]

And what's wrong with doing what your skill is supposed to do?

[The Butcher]

That's just the thing with spot and listen. They're practically useless unless you also spend feats, get gear, and are an elf. Hence hardly anybody makes spot/listen focused characters; there's no place for 'normal' characters.

If you are going to make statements like this, then I ask you to read the OP. There is a human bard on this server who has 0 feats and 0 equipment geared towards listen, and she can reliably detect the highest MS.

There is a human barbarian/frenzied berserker who is only level 15, has a few pieces of faction gear, and can accomplish the same - albeit, he must get lucky.

Note that I am saying the HIGHEST. This means ALL stealthers in Sundren. The poor low levels who yet have the gear and money that characters like Lilene or Rina have are easily detected with almost no investments into skills, by some classes, and meager investments by the rest.

In case of those 60+ skill characters, no you can't.

Again, read my posts. I have listed ways that you can, and this is after applying max caster level buffs the character's hide/move silently.

[Kaeldorn]

Buffs that last for a few minutes/rounds tops and require expensive potions that are entirely wasted if someone doesn't happen to come along stealthed. Not very viable if you're supposed to stand guard for an RP session of half an hour or more. Let alone detecting someone who is trailing you while you're on a mission of some sort.

Balancing around 20 rolls is not balancing, and even allowing a guaranteed "win" for stealthers to exist when faced with detectors with a normally maximised skill investment in spot/listen is wrong.

[Philosopher]

Butcher also has a very good point in the fact that not ALL stealthers achieve these high levels of stealth scores. There are quite a few stealthers out there that aren't completely unbeatable. Most of them are non-Eboncoin (because the EC gets a lot of stealth gear).

[Doubtful]

It's that a stealther can go wherever he pleases without any risk of detection by other PC's in RP situations so long as he doesn't willingly give himself away. And with exception of a few spells to improve perception skill for a short time, they can get away from pretty much anything as well.

Perhaps I may direct your attention to the last two panels of:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html

There are plenty of places in the game world where people can go and do things, talk, gossip, plot, plan, discuss, disseminate and all sorts of other things without every worrying that some canny rogue is eavesdroping on their conversation.

Just keep an eye on the doors. Closed doors defeat everthing but ethereal things, and that's what True Seeing is for.

[Kaeldorn]

because the EC gets a lot of stealth gear

There is part of the proof that the existence of too much stacking stealth gear, being only available to more or less established max level sneakers, is the cause of the imbalance.

EDIT:
Ok, we have the solution.. we need more doors.

[Lilene Jora]

I'm just going to posit that Lilene's stealth skills are in the mid 40's, because she does not have access to uber stealth gear. That's pretty much eboncoin only as far as I understand. She is very detectable, despite her level, resources, and even vampiric nature.

[Philosopher]

There is actually an easy way to balance stacking skill bonuses:

Put all skill bonuses on specific items only.

Hide only goes on cloaks.
Move silently only goes on boots.
Listen/spot only goes on heads.
Etc.

Then you'd get only one slot for bonuses.

Pathfinder takes this approach and also extends it to Stat bonus items as well:

All Strength/Dex/Con items go on belts.
All Int/Wis/Cha items go on headbands.

That way you have to choose which stats you want to get bonuses since you only have one slot to fill it. At later levels, Pathfinder puts multiple stat bonuses on these items (example: head band of int and wis +2), but those items are made about 50% more expensive than the two seperate items would be combined.

Just an development idea.