Scarlett Smash!

[Arckeya]

...or some piece of crap fighter.. . ( sorry had to say it )

Ouch Soul... just... ouch... *touches his heart* Right here man...

I'll have you know Kai is much more then just a piece of crap fighter!! *glares*

[Ethereal Edge]

I've powergamed in Neverwinter Nights since it came out, and my best friends and I have all had shots at the cleric class. There's a natural order in powergaming, however, that always causes a certain class to completely outdo another. It's like a game of rock-paper-scissors, really. Despite this, certain well made builds can overrule others... that doesn't mean anything, sadly, as pure clerics aren't a very good build. Neither are pure fighters. Pure mages are pretty decent, however. You can say I'm wrong, but all my experience says I'm right. Why? Because here's the order of things generally:

Cleric > Fighter
Mage > Cleric
Fighter > Mage

Furthermore, this picking order dies out in situations where every party is not totally aware. I.E.

Unaware Fighter > Unaware Cleric

If a cleric is caught by a fighter without buffs, they're dead. They'll be lying on the ground as they're righteously killed with a spread of critical hits and every chance they do get to stand and buff they'll be trying to beat ridiculous concentration DCs. By the time they get off divine might, they might be at 25% health.

Clerics are basically the weakest unaware class in existence . Even compared to mages at the last levels available. Catch a mage unaware and you'll soon find yourself with nothing to attack as they cast timestop , if it's available. If they do, by the time you can attack again? They'll have every defensive buff available on and be shooting delayed blast fireballs at you. This makes the order roughly:

Unaware Fighters > Unaware Mages > Unaware Clerics

In Neverwinter Nights I I dealt with the same complaints on every server I was on, and I found it laughable. I watch people sit there, wait for clerics to buff, and then attack, as if they're not going to be honorable if they attack during buffing. No! This isn't an episode of Dragonball Z, don't let your opponent reach some ungodly limit of power before trying to kick their shins out. Just attack a cleric in time and you'll find it dead.

Despite this, the cleric class is unbalanced because clerics in real Dungeons and Dragons were ported virtually verbatim and in Dungeons and Dragons what most clerics do daily on the server would cause the dungeon master to be smacking the player across the table. For fighter classes to have worth I admit that there will indeed need to be a balance struck where there is a rest limit, because at level twenty clerics and mages greatly outdo fighters. Mages are just so rare because, at low levels, they're hard to play.

There are specific builds of fighters, however, such as monks, that can easily just... eh... force clerics and mages into submission. That's why people need to stop crying about monks being so worthless... they can become virtually invincible, even if they can't do damage. All they need to do is party with one person and they're capable of doing anything. And if push comes to shove, they can run faster than the other guy.

I didn't even read everything going on, I just assumed this was about powergaming. Oops.

[Ithildur]

Don't forget though, NWN2 pulled the plug on timestop. The most powerful beings in DnD are high lvl mages... with contingency gone, and now timestop gone, well, they're not quite all that anymore.

Unbuffed/unprepared wizard will do even worse than an unbuffed cleric vs a fighter, as they have no armor and half the HPs. lvl 4 ftr vs lvl 4 wiz unprepared, it's over fast, same at lvls 5 -10. A typical lvl 10 wizard will have 40 - 50 HPs, which a good lvl 10 ftr can chew up in one or two rounds especially with a nice feat or two. A lvl 4 wiz... 20 HP maybe?

A pureclass wizard gets the good bigsby's at lvl 11 and finally the tables start to turn slowly.

Lvl 20 vs lvl 20 probably isn't a very applicable scenerio/example for Sundren, at least I sincerely hope not...

please... not another server that becomes chock full of lvl 15+ superheroes in two to three months... *sigh* Yet another reason to have bigger penalties for death. Not hard to get to lvl 15 when death is a minor bump on the road.

[Ralek]

Hey, I'm playing a monk for the first time, and I'm loving every second of it. Our only weakness is the low base attack bonus, but all the other stuff more than enough makes up for it.

At higher levels, monks are virtually immune to clerics and mages, my guess would be since they have a damn good spell resistance, as well as good saves all around.

[Scarlett]

Assay Resistance removes SR though... :x

[Firecrest]

Im going with Etherals take on all this.

This is an age old argument. Its very simple: Buffed cleric kills fighter. Unbuffed cleric gets killed by fighter. Buffed mage kills both.

Its how its always been on NWN 1, and I doubt itll change for NWN 2.

[OzmaDarkheart]

Missing something....

Im going with Etherals take on all this.

This is an age old argument. Its very simple: Buffed cleric kills fighter. Unbuffed cleric gets killed by fighter. Buffed mage kills both.

Its how its always been on NWN 1, and I doubt itll change for NWN 2.

Unbuffed rogue comes out of hiding and backstabs winner of previous battle. Rogue wins

[Anauroch]

This is an age old argument. Its very simple: Buffed cleric kills fighter. Unbuffed cleric gets killed by fighter. Buffed mage kills both.

All true - except the last point. That is debatable....

Unbuffed rogue comes out of hiding and backstabs winner of previous battle. Rogue wins

YAY for the rogue... *runs and thinks up a rogue quickly*

[Glare Bear]

Actually I don't agree with any of it. There are always countermeasures. The only spell that I think really screwed it up is improved invis which is out.
Sr for monks? Try mordenkainens disjunction or assay as mentionned (by the way yes i do take disjunction in cases where ive gotten that high.)

Fighters? Now that improved invis is out all you need is one knockdown and its over. A wizard won't resist

Clerics have plenty of death magic, be thankful heartstop (I think that's what it's called) isn't in the game. That'd take the combat out of the concept entirely for powergamers.

Unprepared wizards vs a fighter? What happened to hold person? They have NO will saves...

Low duration buffs for combative casters? I take extend spell almost regardless of that intent or not, in my opinion it's the best metamagic feat.

My point isn't to belittle anyone's arguments except for the fact none of this is concrete. If you want to survive as the 'underdog' in whatever situation then prepare for it. Don't just take fireball and pray the rogue with improved evasion will get hit.

[Arckeya]

My fighter has an above average and descent will save :/. But I'll definitely be looking for any items that can protect or improve his chances against will save spells and effects, because they really do cripple out a fighter given the circumstances.

As for knockdown, I could have improved if I wanted and then just spam the damn thing on any spellcaster I see. Point is it always hits so the only chance of it failing is a failed strength check. Against most spellcasters a strength based fighter has the advantage in the dice rolls. Nonetheless I hate the feat because of how it works right now so I don't have the feats in question.

Cheers :P

[Anauroch]

As for knockdown, I could have improved if I wanted and then just spam the damn thing on any spellcaster I see. Point is it always hits so the only chance of it failing is a failed strength check. Against most spellcasters a strength based fighter has the advantage in the dice rolls. Nonetheless I hate the feat because of how it works right now so I don't have the feats in question.

QFT.

Normal rules for knockdown, ie trip from the D&D 3.5 rules (simplified for a situation where the attacker has improved trip / knockdown):
1) Attacker has to succeed at a touch attack
2) THEN you make the opposed Str check with mods for size and so on. This cannot be done with every weapon though!

On the other hand, there are no items with "Immunity Knockdown" in the D&D world either.

[--chupacabra--]

Welllllll...

There is never enough clerics to heal parties.. never enough spells..


Everyone complains that the rest system will degrade the fighter.. yet .. people will want the clerics to heal.. there is a limited amount of healing.


As someone stated above.. this is a server with persistant beasts.. you have to rest.. I see fighters getting their arses kicked..and ..instead of using healing potions or kits.. they rest..

Its basically the same deal all around.. you wanna cleric to get massive heal spells.. heal the team up then rest a half a dozen times.. or have a cleric buff himself up.. kick arse to help out.. and rest a half a dozen times.

I have seen from my experience that there is never enough clerics to heal a group.. too much fighting.. too many battles..not enough clerics. I rarely have my Abi in a group with another cleric.. but I'll see fighters and so forth all the time.. not to mention warlocks :P. She will heal and stuff if really need be.. but to simply walk around and try to heal everyone can get tough.. you run out..quick.. then have to rest again.

I happen to love the cleric class, but on the topic of healing clerics: there are many ways to heal your party mates other than relying on your spells and/or spontaneous conversion. With such a high Wisdom stat, a cleric with high healing skills can use healing kits very efficiently. Scrolls of Cure X Wounds are cheap. A higher level cleric with mass curing spells need only ask everyone to 'gather around' to heal up the whole party.

Not to say that every cleric has to be pigeon-holed into being some sort of super healer, but as it stands, the vast majority of clerics I've seen in NWN1/2 are pure battleclerics who's deities and dogmas are rarely roleplayed bar saying 'let so-and-so bless us *self buffs*.' Won't even go into the Domain selection. Why there are not deity-specific domains in the stock game I will never know.


Personally, I really like rest timer style resting systems because they make classes like the cleric more fun to play in the long run. If you can rest at any time you like, it takes a lot of the strategy out of the use of spells and buffs. Besides, for example, if your party keeps getting hit with disease or cursed, it makes it an interesting trade off to swap out a powerfull buff for a curing spell. If you can spam rest, there is no trade off.

Rest timers also tend to balance classes that don't need to rest vs. ones that do. That is to say, fighters vs. cleric-tanks, warlocks vs. mages. The whole buffed vs. unbuffed argument is a little moot if you consider this; without resting limitations the only time someone is caught unbuffed is if they just woke up from their 'power nap.'

I'm honestly not bashing clerics; these are just my own observations.

[Cheatcake]

With such a high Wisdom stat, a cleric with high healing skills can use healing kits very efficiently. Scrolls of Cure X Wounds are cheap. A higher level cleric with mass curing spells need only ask everyone to 'gather around' to heal up the whole party.

Maybe priests would follow the "support team" role better if healing kits were scratched (or made to work like D&D, something like 1d3 healing and only used once per set of wounds) and potions and scrolls were sold for their right price

[Clutch]

Unbuffed rogue comes out of hiding and backstabs winner of previous battle. Rogue wins

Damn right

[Firecrest]

Unbuffed rogue comes out of hiding and backstabs winner of previous battle. Rogue wins

Cheeky bastard

Personally, I really like rest timer style resting systems because they make classes like the cleric more fun to play in the long run. If you can rest at any time you like, it takes a lot of the strategy out of the use of spells and buffs. Besides, for example, if your party keeps getting hit with disease or cursed, it makes it an interesting trade off to swap out a powerfull buff for a curing spell. If you can spam rest, there is no trade off.

Cant say Ive ever agreed with timer systems. It makes it that much harder for EVERY class. Ive played on afew servers with it, mages pretty much dont play there because its impossible for them. Fighters who cant afford potions and healing are in trouble. And of course clerics are going to get the run around.

But thats just me, not sure what everyone else thinks about timer systems. Me personally - I think they smell like poop mouth.