Scarlett Smash!

[Scarlett]

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums...&sp=30#4853137

Tell me if I was right or wrong in what I said? Likely wrong; I loathe arguing. But god those people there are very incompetent on comparison. >.<

[Ithildur]

*shrugs* Well, I don't think too many people disagree clerics in NWN are, due to the lack of any kind of RP restrictions in the game engine, the most powerful base class when it comes to combat, especially picking and choosing domains.

Here's the the thing for me... clerics are clerics, fighters are fighters. Fighters are supposed to be combat oriented by definition. The name itself says it all, they fight, and they're supposed to fight, and fight really really well. Clerics in NWN are extremely combat oriented, much more so than in PnP, due to a lot of restrictions being removed so that people who want to play a fast paced combat oriented game can take a cleric and be just as deadly if not more than a fighter.

Remember the familiars in NWN1? they were virtual tanks, mini henchmen that would allow your wizard lvl 1 to solo stuff which really, you should not be able to do in DnD, but because NWN was catering to a market that has a lot of people who want to play Diabolo type of combat, wizard familiars became combat tanks (at least they took that out in NWN2, although I'm still amazed people run around combat areas with their 20 HP familiar in tow...)

My take on DnD is based on a lot of the older iconic ideas; i.e. most fighter types do the bulk of up front ass kicking, most wizards cast spells from the back, and most clerics, HEAL and SUPPORT and BUFF people, pray for their god's aid, etc with the potential to really harm someone once in a while with divine power, but not become whirling dervishes of destruction 24/7, unless they're battlepriests of Tempus or some such. Obviously there are exceptions and blurring these lines sometimes is part of the fun, which is why I like EK types (they're iconic as well though, the classic elven fighter/mage from DnD Basic anyone?), but I always thought it odd that priests were the most dangerous combat classes in NWN games. That's why I love Ilmaterian clerics that are RPed properly... they almost never attack monsters directly and let the fighters fight while they do the things that only clerics can do, and RP spiritual guidance/influence/wisdom more than flexing their divine spells muscle. Many of them don't even wear armor; now that's a challenge. I love people who RP clerics this way; their high wisdom score isn't just for getting more bonus spells and higher save DC.

[Anthropic]

My take on DnD is based on a lot of the older iconic ideas; i.e. most fighter types do the bulk of up front ass kicking, most wizards cast spells from the back, and most clerics, HEAL and SUPPORT and BUFF people, pray for their god's aid, etc with the potential to really harm someone once in a while with divine power, but not become whirling dervishes of destruction 24/7, unless they're battlepriests of Tempus or some such. Obviously there are exceptions and blurring these lines sometimes is part of the fun, which is why I like EK types (they're iconic as well though, the classic elven fighter/mage from DnD Basic anyone?), but I always thought it odd that priests were the most dangerous combat classes in NWN games. That's why I love Ilmaterian clerics that are RPed properly... they almost never attack monsters directly and let the fighters fight while they do the things that only clerics can do, and RP spiritual guidance/influence/wisdom more than flexing their divine spells muscle. Many of them don't even wear armor; now that's a challenge. I love people who RP clerics this way; their high wisdom score isn't just for getting more bonus spells and higher save DC.

I really think Ithildur hit the nail with this post right here. Let me start by stating that I think folks forget that DnD was created as a role-playing game. Although the combat power of the Cleric should extend beyond that of a fighter. It should, in fact, only be for short durations and amounts. This is exagerated infinitely by the fact that the player can rest his cleric anywhere and as many times as he wishes. In my opinion, this is truely bad form and is violated constantly by folks playing Clerics. If the infinite rest factor is removed, fighters will truely gain the inherent power they deserve. This is the power fight relatively well for very long durations of time.

Although I do not think there should be a rest timer, I really think players should have the integrity to play thier Clerics as if thier spells and powers are not infinite and infact may run out if they do not conserve them, leaving them much much weaker than the fighters they party with.

Scarlett, I agree with your 'do not nerf a class simply because another is underpowered' arguement. But at the same time, I do think some classes, the Cleric in particular, require a review by Obsidian. So, I cannot argue the viability of the 'Overpowered Cleric' on a powergaming and PvP standpoint.

That is why I think this game is at it's best when folks role-play instead of worry about the capabilites of 'builds' and classes. The power of a character should be defined by the depth of content established through role-play.

[Fizzer]

Clerics and Priests from fiction and legend who are known for their fantastic combat abilities do not spring to mind - though no doubt there are some...

In the system it would seem the combat abilities of the priest outstrip more traditional combat classes...then again roleplay is not about balance as I have noted in other posts. However,

In my opinion, if you wanted to 'balance' it, this is what I would suggest:

If you made these incredible spells which turn a cleric into a fighter who fights much better than a fighter:

1. of extremely limited duration
2. have a downside (like inability to cast whilst on) or
3. Useable only on allies who are fighters!!! That would solve both problems!

That's my opinion...

[Scarlett]

To my knowledge, RE, Battletide, Divine Favor (which if they capped at 3+ and made non-persistent spellable would fix it) and Divine Power are self buffs only... their already also 6 seconds / level...could reduce them to 60 seconds / every 4 levels or something. :O

I do agree with that, beings it does need some changing (Cleric) but comparing it to fighter is laughable since fighter lacks anything unique as is...

[Rhazeal]

The core of the problem actually seems to be downtime / spell conservation. From my PnP experiences, I know that spellcasters will not want to chuck their spells at the first rat coming their way, unless they're perfectly safe they'll be able to rest directly following this.
In NWN2 – There is no downtime. You can bunk it out in the winds and regain your spells in a matter of seconds, with little to no chance of being attacked. This, added to the fact that NWN2 is generally more combat oriented, results in a severe advantage for all spellcasting classes.

[Anthropic]

I do agree with that, beings it does need some changing (Cleric) but comparing it to fighter is laughable since fighter lacks anything unique as is...

What makes you think that the innate combat capability of the fighter is not unique? What don't you understand about the fact that the infinite rest factor waters down this unique asset?

[qwerty06]

*walks into the thread and is a fighter* *walks out again*

[Garfaldo]

I really think Ithildur hit the nail with this post right here. Let me start by stating that I think folks forget that DnD was created as a role-playing game. Although the combat power of the Cleric should extend beyond that of a fighter. It should, in fact, only be for short durations and amounts.

Agreed. A fully buffed up Cleric has power over a fighter but it requires the time and area of safety to cast all those buffs. A fighter is strong right off the bat. It's a give and take.

I play a cleric not for any kind of power they have, but because I enjoy the dynamic of using divine power to help, or hurt others. The hardest part of playing a Cleric is making your actions in-line with your god's domains and stance. This is something I admitedly am not perfect at, but am having fun learning.

[Maxx Powers]

I do agree with that, beings it does need some changing (Cleric) but comparing it to fighter is laughable since fighter lacks anything unique as is...

Just because a fighter doesnt stand around for 10 minutes casting spells on himself doesnt mean that he's not a skilled person. Combat clerics are the ones that have to hide behind all those spells.... And, yes, fighters DO get unique abilities that a cleric can't.

But thats not my point.







This is:

Considering how the role of a cleric has changed from D&D to NWN, i say just take their BAB progression down to 1/2. That would even them out nicely.

[Pulseczar]

I guess I'll just make a couple comments:

Yes, fully buffed mid to high level clerics competely out do a fighter in melee, while they remain buffed. There was a bit of PvP recently where a 6th level fighter took on a 5th level wizard/fighter. Due to buffs, the wiz/figther had the upper edge. However, the battle lasted long enough that the wia/fighter's buffs started to fade. After that, it was all over for the wiz/fighter.

This is seen much more often in DM events. People can't rest every second of a DM event (well, sometimes they can, but they get slapped around by a DM if they do). So this is when the difference is really seen. Fighters can take the front line durring attacks while the clerics and other casters heal/buff. If a cleric or EK tries to go melee, their buffs will eventually fade and then they'll have to retreat and be somewhat useless for the rest of combat.

With regards to the frequent resting. I support and endorse the idea of GBX posted in another thread about "safe resting" zones. I'd go so far as to say add a few "campfire" areas that are just outdoor 2x2 or 4x4 areas that have a little campfire setup so that parties can go there, RP, rest, and prepare to invade, let's say, Viridale Forest. However, once inside the forest, they can't rest anymore. This would really give the areas an added difficulty because people will need to go from the entrance, to the top of Mossclaw meet on one set of buffs/spells. Some parties will get through a couple creatures, and need to retreat. But a well balanced party will be able to work together and make it all the way to the end for that great feeling of accomplishment.

Another variation would be to allow resting in outdoor areas with a % chance of being attacked, and have no resting in underground areas, except for a couple carefully placed resting nooks that players must find.

So yeah. Fighters are decent over an average amount of time, clerics are awesome over short periods of time, and sub par for all the rest of the time. This is lessened by the fact that they can rest very often, so I say, modify that aspect and you've got yourself some balance.

[/ramblings]

[Scarlett]

The people were saying clerics shouldn't out compete a fighter due to a few spells, which I agree with, but if the fighter had more fighter only feats (like grapple, special strikes, etc that help it shine in combat) then it wouldn't be such a broad and loose comparison. Also, BAB isn't anything to clerics when Divine Power gives them the BAB of a Fighter.

[Rhazeal]

Well Scarlett - This is a roleplaying game, not a PvP game. The classes don't need to be perfectly balanced

[Ithildur]

Right, I do not think perfect balance should be the goal, although inherent in DnD's system is the idea of at least *some* balance so that most classes are viable and that 80% of people don't choose 20% of available classes and that 'weaker' classes don't feel completely useless in combat.

It's the RP, and the ROLES that characters/classes play out, that really seems odd to me about so many priests - spiritual leaders, healers, etc, are so often seen/used as buffed up fighters and ignore those roles.

Drives me crazy when I'm in a party (didn't happen here yet) and this happens: there are plenty of capable fighters fighting a tough critter, and the cleric, instead of keeping them alive while they are doing effective damage but taking a BEATING, uses all his buffs on himself and wades in to tank next to them and gets killed himself, taking the party's only hopes for serious healing and rez along with him.

[Soulbadguy]

Welllllll...

There is never enough clerics to heal parties.. never enough spells..


Everyone complains that the rest system will degrade the fighter.. yet .. people will want the clerics to heal.. there is a limited amount of healing.


As someone stated above.. this is a server with persistant beasts.. you have to rest.. I see fighters getting their arses kicked..and ..instead of using healing potions or kits.. they rest..

Its basically the same deal all around.. you wanna cleric to get massive heal spells.. heal the team up then rest a half a dozen times.. or have a cleric buff himself up.. kick arse to help out.. and rest a half a dozen times.

I have seen from my experience that there is never enough clerics to heal a group.. too much fighting.. too many battles..not enough clerics. I rarely have my Abi in a group with another cleric.. but I'll see fighters and so forth all the time.. not to mention warlocks :P. She will heal and stuff if really need be.. but to simply walk around and try to heal everyone can get tough.. you run out..quick.. then have to rest again.

Like someone said.. this is a roleplay server and people can rag all day about clerics and fighters.. resting system. All in all lets not compare anything DnD pencil and paper with NWN2.. you just can't.. cause its not the same. I say.. Roleplay.. have fun .. enjoy yourselves regardless if your a buff ass cleric or some piece of crap fighter.. . ( sorry had to say it )