More Things to Kill!

[Phantom Lamb]

We're looking to fill in some parts of Sundren with dungeons and other areas with hostiles. Our first areas will target level ranges for players where we think they're forced to fight just one monster type -- offer some variety.

What level ranges do you feel need addressing first? (you can pick more than one if the ranges I listed are too small in your eyes)

NOTE -- Level 3 - 5 isn't an option because we already have plans for a new area on that. It won't be released before this one, but it is coming.

[Qinniqtuq Aggaak]

I like the idea of more places where some challenges can be met.

I find the hardest transition for many characters ranges between the 8-12 range, at least for me personally. Areas that would provide a challenge for lone, or pairs of characters within that level range would be a nice addition.

[Cornuto]

Levels 1-5 go by pretty quick once you know the server and bang out all the initial fetch&carry quests. The slow down seems to happen around level 10-15, so I'd suggest adding more content for the 13-14 range.

I'd also love to see a super hard OMG we're all gonna die, high risk/high reward dungeon that is designed to give fits to groups of level 20's.

[BedlamX]

I don't have much of a problem getting to level 7 or 8. Considering the vast majority of my characters are kinda wimpy, that should say a little about the ease of leveling to that point (note "ease" not "speed" of leveling). I only have on ethat has hit level 12 and he is a pure fighter type (with 3 levels of Thayan Knight). So far, all the others are kinda stuck in the 8-10 range with almost nothing they can survive at long enough to level, so I would have to say the 9-14 level will be tough for me.

I know...kinda off-topic, but...one thing I would love to see added in the new areas (no matter what level they are made for) is more opportunities for non-combat types. Clerics/druids rule on Sundren with mages close behind (at higher levels). And fighters can do really well if they can get decent gear (to a point). It seems rogues and other sneaky types have a really tough time unless they have good pals that don't mind babysitting them or the group wants to maximize their gold intake and grabs one for the locked chests and stuff. Some kind of dungeon that requires old-school teamwork would be nice. I kinda miss needing the old style party of a fighter, a rogue, a mage, and a cleric.

Guess I'm showin my age again.

[Lanemeyer]

I voted 17-18, though it could also be 19-20

[Urithrand]

19-20 for me. I always find that the last 19,000 exp needed to make the plunge to the hard cap is just too much when you see how little you get for the spawns in the Mossdale, and the inherent risk involved in getting it.

[Phantom Lamb]

Just to be clear, this isn't about difficulty. It's about variety! What level do you find yourself saying, "the only place I have to go fight something is ______."

[Seheren]

I voted for 13-14

[BedlamX]

Just to be clear, this isn't about difficulty. It's about variety! What level do you find yourself saying, "the only place I have to go fight something is ______."

Sorry, but it kinda is about difficulty. A level 5 can go to higher places and get great xp if they can manage to survive, so, in essence, they have a ton of places to go. Same goes for most levels up to about 10 or 11 when the Virindale starts dropping off. If my fighter doesn't have a buffer with him, he can't last long against most things that give more than 8 xp (and that is with pretty darned good gear).

If we are not supposed to take difficulty into account, then basically the only level range that has to worry about "where can I go and still get xp" is the very upper ones as lower ones can always go the "high risk/high reward" route. In that case, I'd have to change my vote to the 15-20 range as it seems there is not many places for them to get more than a miniscule amount of xp.

One thing I would like to see is how many people vote for what level range their main character is (or an alt, I guess). It's human nature to want what is best for your character. I know that has something to do with my vote.

Sorry to sound like a jerk, but this just doesn't seem like all that easy a question to answer without letting personal wants or difficulty come into play.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I don't have much of a problem getting to level 7 or 8. Considering the vast majority of my characters are kinda wimpy, that should say a little about the ease of leveling to that point (note "ease" not "speed" of leveling). I only have on ethat has hit level 12 and he is a pure fighter type (with 3 levels of Thayan Knight). So far, all the others are kinda stuck in the 8-10 range with almost nothing they can survive at long enough to level, so I would have to say the 9-14 level will be tough for me.

I know...kinda off-topic, but...one thing I would love to see added in the new areas (no matter what level they are made for) is more opportunities for non-combat types. Clerics/druids rule on Sundren with mages close behind (at higher levels). And fighters can do really well if they can get decent gear (to a point). It seems rogues and other sneaky types have a really tough time unless they have good pals that don't mind babysitting them or the group wants to maximize their gold intake and grabs one for the locked chests and stuff. Some kind of dungeon that requires old-school teamwork would be nice. I kinda miss needing the old style party of a fighter, a rogue, a mage, and a cleric.

Guess I'm showin my age again.

Yeah the only place with tricks and traps is the cartel fortress really. I suppose you can only truly get that feeling of immersion in events where the DM is trying to include everyone i.e. Evil to smite, locks to bust, darkness to be cleansed, walls to scale, puzzled to solve and so on and so forth.

[gbbishop]

I want to see a counter part to veritas.. specially since most of my character dont see any IC point to killing them... never have. I know you are trying to get to the point where all the factions have "raidable" areas... i dunno really.

I also don't know what these level ranges pertain to. Some of my groups (the dwaven ones) can rock the shite out of the ogres at like 6-7th level. but my "less cool" groups (the humans) can't hit that til like 10th.

I remember there was talk of posting suggested level ranges for existing areas did anyone ever do that?

[ParadoxicalAnonymity]

I have to mirror both of gbbishop's sentiments.

I've had quite a few characters in the past that would not go near the Veritas, because they felt they were not to be effectively attacked, due to the political climate surrounding that issue.

I think it would be extraordinarily helpful if there was a counterpart around that 12-16 level that didn't have as large of an ethical debate amongst it. I'm not saying you need to throw in baby-consuming, genocidal drow to kill. Just something not quite as controversial, perhaps. As mentioned in the topic's original post, an alternative to that level range.

And, also, as gbbishop has pointed out, not all characters go to places at the same levels. Classes can make such an enormous difference. Cleric/Favored Souls can just stomp through content, even solo. Where as a monk/fighter/rogue is going to either be killing things for 4xp a pop, or going with buffers. This isn't a complaint, in the least, simply that knowing what level everything is entirely intended for isn't entirely clear.

Recently I was getting 64xp a pop on lizards with my monk. Before that, I was only getting about 20xp a pop on Cartel. Is there a sweet spot we should be looking for, so we know what level is 'intended?'

Levels 1-5 go by pretty quick once you know the server and bang out all the initial fetch&carry quests. The slow down seems to happen around level 10-15, so I'd suggest adding more content for the 13-14 range.

I'd also love to see a super hard OMG we're all gonna die, high risk/high reward dungeon that is designed to give fits to groups of level 20's.

I can understand this, as when you hit that final level 20, it feels as if adventuring is pointless, unless you just want to grind stags. But there's a reason why I think these things can always provide some nasty fallout, as evidenced on servers I've played in the past that have done this. The primary reason being that while it might seem high risk at first, it won't remain high risk once people understand it.

As I'm sure the devs have abundantly recognized by this point, a challenge to one group is not a challenge to another group. While it might be challenging to a classic wizard/fighter/cleric party, there also could be a group of 3 Stormlords smashing through the place and accumulating tons and tons of riches.

And then if you try to balance it to a group made up of a bunch of powerbuilds, it becomes nigh impossible for traditional groups, where people just stop inviting along burdensome baggage characters.

The irony in such things is that it just further separates that dichotomy of the polar extremes of Divine War Machines and your traditional combatant roles. To be clear, this isn't a veiled attempt to rally for some sort of equalizing of forces. Hardly.

Simply that every server I've seen this sort of thing created on has just resulted in powerbuild characters farming the crap out of such areas, once they learn how to, and then just amassing even more ridiculous wealth/rewards. If that's genuinely something the staff was going for, cool.

Otherwise, I've found it to be a counterproductive measure.

[Phantom Lamb]

Just so you know GBB, the Shekinessi are available for that same CR range. You'll find them in that lava area of the mountains: Smoldering Burrow, I think it's called.

[ParadoxicalAnonymity]

Muy intersante.

[Intrepid42]

As I'm sure the devs have abundantly recognized by this point, a challenge to one group is not a challenge to another group. While it might be challenging to a classic wizard/fighter/cleric party, there also could be a group of 3 Stormlords smashing through the place and accumulating tons and tons of riches.

There are some things that help promote balanced parties, as staff will be well aware and use already. High DR doors and traps promote use of rogues (especially randomly spawned unavoidable divine traps... ). Giving the enemies dispelling spells also decreases reliance on buffs to some extent. In my opinion there are always options, but they are not ideal ones. They can increase builder/testing workload a lot, and can also lead to a lot of dissatisfaction from players unhappy with "forced party" play.