State of the Server (9/24/15)

[Lotus]

Applications processes are awesome.

The best.

[thaelis]

Sundren itself has had a number (but admittedly a small number) of eye-rollingly terrible snowflake concepts around that weren't in any way hindered by the application process. Prancing idiot vampires, paladins with the same approach to lawful good as Darth Vader, characters switching between Bane and Lathander every other week, and so on.

I have to say, as long as they are roleplayed well then none of those characters mentioned have much of a negative impact on the server, except perhaps the one that switches sides every week. They also add some (sometimes much needed) comedy.

What I dislike personally is the 13yo kid Paladin *walks up to campfire, detects evil repeatedly, draws sword* "I sens you r evil, in the name of my mitey God Latanader face venjence!"

Applications processes are awesome.

(then again, I'm guessing at this point no one playing NWN2 is a young kid any longer!)

[Requiem]

The decision to remove vampires was fairly unanimous by the staff. Those who have played vampires did nothing wrong, and it is not in any way an attack on their roleplay talents. Instead, we want to restore some of the mystery and fear of encountering a vampire and not the "oh yeah, he comes around most nights to hang with his buddies and maybe threaten the local paladin." There is also a mechanical issue to address. If we cap levels but then give certain players the vampire template, they gain a +5 ECL on top of their level cap. It really tips the playing field, especially with the accommodations we made for vampire characters such as being able to cross running water and some of the reductions in efficiency for holy symbols and garlic. So we discussed it and decided to remove PC vampires for now. If you still absolutely need a vampire fix might I suggest this or these as I found them to be pretty good RPGs.

As for other classes/races being application restricted, the thought process is fairly similar. They are rare and/or very difficult to play well. By making the process application-based, we make sure that those characters are well-planned and thought out, and in the hands of roleplayers who are taking it seriously. Has the process been perfect in the past? No, absolutely not. Should we completely discard the process just because it has not worked perfectly? No, absolutely not. If a player's perception based upon the process is that we as staff are being snobby, elitist know-it-alls then that player is looking to be offended. We are simply trying to maintain a cohesive story and a population that reflects the setting. We want every player to feel equally special and important to the narrative by what they contribute, not by the race or class they are playing.

[Talleyman99]

I only meant that Chime wasn't important in any server faction.

Ouch... first Brams not Dains friend, now Chime wasnt important to Brams part of the legion...

Also of two minds on the events, while they could be fun little hurrah! I also don't want to take away from the staffs time, so that our new Sundren is done on time and will have as many bells and whistles those working hard on it can fit in.

[Fuzziebunny]

Also Sestra Tournament when?!

<3 for you Gamestarmike! I only meant that Chime wasn't important in any server faction. She was all about Aquor. Also,

Sestra Tournament when?

[Kaybrie]

I think vampires were about 50/50 thoughtfully chosen / drunkenly designated.

More literal then you'd think.

[Lotus]

Despite what you say GD, I maintain that they were still better handled than drow, warlocks and the rest.

I think vampires were about 50/50 thoughtfully chosen / drunkenly designated.

[Kaybrie]

I would absolutely adore a wrap up of events. I think there are a few people, like me, who played characters that weren’t really active in a faction. I played an active character sure. But she wasn’t special or important to any sort of server group. I can't speak for anyone else. But, I have a strong suspicion that those who have several alts would also adore the opportunity to gain ideas for their characters endings. And, close out events, could be just the thing to do this. If you do happened to decide to hold a few close out events, I think you will find several people interested in attending.

I still have no idea what to do with Gabrielle, if anything. Some last few events to throw her at would be nice, I could end this Sundren plot leaping through another perm-loop.

[gamestarmike]

I played an active character sure. But she wasn’t special or important to any sort of server group.

Chime was a pretty big deal and was in on a ton of intrigue and had a huge impact on Aquor. Im confused

Also Sestra Tournament when?!

[Fuzziebunny]

Personally I'd rather we have some fantastic events that help close out our current timeline, wrapping up stories and getting people excited for what's to come

I would absolutely adore a wrap up of events. I think there are a few people, like me, who played characters that weren’t really active in a faction. I played an active character sure. But she wasn’t special or important to any sort of server group. I can't speak for anyone else. But, I have a strong suspicion that those who have several alts would also adore the opportunity to gain ideas for their characters endings. And, close out events, could be just the thing to do this. If you do happened to decide to hold a few close out events, I think you will find several people interested in attending.

On a separate note, I personally like playing on a server where people care about lore. What is the point of even having the lore if we aren’t going to, at the very least, give a nod to it?

[Rekov]

Kasso and Grinning Death, you've both raised some good points there, and this is one of those issues where there really is no completely perfect solution. Sundren is FR, and probably should remain so for a variety of reasons which you enumerated well, GD. And yes, FR leads to exactly the problems you described.

On Sundren, applications have in the past been used as an attempt to solve a number of different problems, many of which aren't even consistent with each other. Applications are for the sake of lore correctness, or the quality of RP, or the rarity of certain races, or the perceived additional nuance required to play a certain type of character. They only solve a few of those problems though, and only imperfectly at that. They're also a hassle for both players and staff along the way.

It is important at the beginning to draw a distinction between the quality of a players RP, and making sure that they correctly adhere to the lore. There are players in the larger NWN community with an encyclopedic knowledge of FR lore who still can't write a character worth a damn, and there are plenty of people who can write deep, entertaining, and witty characters, but haven't had the chance yet to familiarize themselves with niche aspects of the lore.

Applications cannot stop someone from Baldur's Gate from coming over and playing a terrible character, and your other example Kasso is perfect proof of this. I have never seen a server more obsessed with their application based content than Dalelands Beyond, where base classes, prestige classes, alignments, deities, and faction affiliations all require applications at character creation and again afterward. You can judge for yourselves the effect on the server's quality this has had.

Sundren itself has had a number (but admittedly a small number) of eye-rollingly terrible snowflake concepts around that weren't in any way hindered by the application process. Prancing idiot vampires, paladins with the same approach to lawful good as Darth Vader, characters switching between Bane and Lathander every other week, and so on.

People who generally RP well are also generally going to take the time to research their characters anyways. Let's face it though. Most of us have been on PWs for over a decade now, and FR isn't so big and complicated that people don't know what a drow, tiefling or warlock is in 2015.

I think it is also something of a mistake to conflate 'interesting background' with a well written and interesting character. Too often a character's race and class are substituted for the actual substance of a well written character. If the only interesting thing about a character is that they're a drow or a warlock, I'd submit that they aren't actually that interesting.

Sundren has already shown that they would rather remove vampires than have one such special class of character around. Despite what you say GD, I maintain that they were still better handled than drow, warlocks and the rest. Players were given the opportunity to demonstrate their characters before being judged, and were then judged based on their characters, not some secondary material. It wouldn't be too much of a next step not to have drow, tieflings, genasi, and so on either, if that's the route Sundren wants to take.

If the goal is to promote well written characters, good RP, and a server that feels like a cut above the rest, then the alternative is to lead by example. Reward good role-play with the opportunity for unique and impactful character arcs. Let people have unique and interesting characters by giving them unique things to strive for as characters (like the potential to some day become a vampire). Make characters interesting for who they are, not what they are.

My final argument against applications is that they inevitably lead to negative perceptions among the players, and I do mean to stress perceptions. The most fair application process in the world will be perceived as biased and unfair by those denied, especially if it's for something like rarity of a race and not quality. It creates the unavoidable impression of the staff as elitist, holier-than-thou types who think themselves better than the riffraff players. Better able to write, and better able to judge others' writing. It is in large part what led to the explosive collapses of ToA, PoS, and ToA2.

In the end, I think we're all in this to make Sundren an awesome experience. I almost always take the libertarian position over the authoritarian one on such matters because I think it sends a positive message to players, and doesn't punish the innocent for the sake of preventing the bad apples from slipping through, so to speak. I would rather risk having a few bad apples slip through before being nipped than have a pristine but empty server, of which there are so, so many these days.

I'm gonna try to let this topic rest here because I could go on forever about it, and that doesn't lead anywhere good.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

... PC vampires in fact demonstrated a better approach for giving players exclusive content than applications

You raise some interesting arguments, most of which I'm not certain I agree with. But first, the vampire race was application based. The staff evaluated the written biography and overall character concept, and deemed it fit for use in the general public. Which, as you point out, is why they were such a good catalyst for RP.

But importantly, I feel a need to point out the lack of custom setting in this case. Faerun is filled with a variety of races, classes, etc., covering an incredible variety of viewpoints and cultures. We didn't create it, which means it would be fundamentally incorrect to ignore certain races and classes.

That said, these races and classes are specific to certain parts of the world. And it is only in a rare circumstance would they visit the enclosed valley of Sundren. Thus, we wish to keep them similarly rare among the PC population in order to conform to the setting.

This raises the question of how to do so. Should we allow everyone to create any PC they want? Probably not, because then we'd be breaking the setting that we're adhering to. Should we forbid everyone from using them? This would also break the setting, albeit in a more acceptable manner. It is conceivable that no drow, gensai, or tiefling would ever come to Sundren. But the problem there, is that it isn't fun. People like having interesting backgrounds, abilities, and roleplay. Else, why have the setting in Faerun?

We could solve this by removing Sundren from Faerun. Create a completely new world, with completely new lore. There are two problems with this solution. First, the server history would have to be jettisoned. While this is feasible, it would need to be something discussed among the staff and the remaining population. And, quite honestly, many of us wouldn't want to do it because we've devoted literally years to developing this PW.

Second, as I pointed out, Faerun has a wealth of lore and history itself to pull on and we don't have to pull all of it. For example, we're skipping the steaming pile of crap that is 4th edition entirely. Suffice to say, I don't think taking Sundren out of Faerun is a great idea, at least not without almost unanimous agreement among the staff and population.

Thus, we're left with how to regulate these restricted race and classes. And we've found that largely, an application system works. We rarely deny players the chance to play their character as long as they properly develop a background, and the valley doesn't have ten tiefling warlocks running amok (bringing us back to the rarity I spoke of earlier). And in fact we give people as much time as they need to develop a good bio, and wait until the population of particular races to die down to give them the green light.

All that said, we are open to an alternative system, provided it addresses the points I've made and it is acceptable to the staff as a whole.

[Kaybrie]

Well, given the server's history (or you can just go look on Dalelands or Baldur's Gate) if you let anyone play any race/class they want, they'll tend to muck it up. Which means more of the not-fun work for DM's which is policing people's RP to make sure they're doing it right. (I for one absolutely hated it when I had to step in on someone doing something ludicrous as a DM, it wasn't fun for them, and it wasn't fun for me.)

The alternative is just to remove every single ECL race/class that has a particular RP/selectiveness attached to it, which is again, the not-fun option. I enjoy seeing tieflings, aasimar, genasi, etc in game, and the RP that's normally attached to such characters.

Sundren's appeal as a unique server was a -higher- standard of RP being attached to it. Drop in and play whatever you want without any research attached (Which is all it takes to make a good bio, a bit of research) and it becomes too casual. If players want super-casual play where nobody's going to police their paladin's alignment, they can go to Baldur's Gate, I for one like that Sundren has a higher standard and expectations of their players.

[gamestarmike]

ya! I want to be a fiendish half-orc vampire paladin/sword saint of Eilistraee!! let us decide!

[Rekov]

I tend to agree with this. And RPotM always had sort of two problems: It was a bit of a popularity contest, where some of the best RPers may not have characters that are popular, and it required a lot of work on the part of the staff.

The best designed settings/servers have no need for applications. This is a common philosophy among people who work on custom setting PWs. The idea is that the setting should be designed to fit the game as well as just the story. You create a setting where any player can pick any origin for their character without it causing issues for the setting.

There was some discussion earlier about the decision not to include PC vampires in the next iteration of Sundren that touched on this issue. The extreme mechanical superiority aside, PC vampires in fact demonstrated a better approach for giving players exclusive content than applications, because the special status is earned through RP, not chosen by some contest only tangentially related to actually role-playing well.

Application based characters will only lead to the same resentment that people felt towards PC vampires, and it will turn people away from the server who want to jump into the character they want to play without having to jump through hoops first.