Economics

[Intrepid42]

Wow. Very impressive work, staff. I like.

I also thank GBX for addressing my first question in an implied fashion in his Economy Guide. I take from it that Avanthyr may contain at least one brewery, but not sufficient for a population of 4,000 plus sales to adventurers. Plus I've always had my concerns about grain supplies following the loss of Sestra and the valley getting overrun.

Murin is not my current primary PC, but what negotiations and planning did take place represented in-game actions and effort by House Meriadoc. So I would want it taken into account for them to a certain extent.

[Elusa]

With regard to troop and population numbers, can you pretty please give Sundren half a chance at not being completely taken over by the Black Hand? 'cause that seems to be the direction the plot is headed.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

With regard to troop and population numbers, can you pretty please give Sundren half a chance at not being completely taken over by the Black Hand? 'cause that seems to be the direction the plot is headed.

What 'seems' and what 'is' are often two very different things. But we're here to facilitate player plans and involvement. So, if the BH wins, it won't be because of us.

[Jhickey]

What 'seems' and what 'is' are often two very different things. But we're here to facilitate player plans and involvement. So, if the BH wins, it won't be because of us.

This is something I would like to address too. Because I play an evil PC and am really involved in what my faction does. I an only echo what GD is saying, because I have worked my but off in every plot that I am involved in. That means from top to bottom. There are few DMs that I don't bounce ideas off of and work on the strategy that I am going to be taken. To think that any of us in the BH have not failed in a plot is insane, because I know I have personally.

The point is, be involved with the faction you are in make plans, if you are like me make 10 plans and run them through the DMs, and hope that one sticks, and that you can successfully take all the steps to complete it. Not only that make sure you don't get discouraged when something doesn't go the way you plan it. I know I have had to change my plots on the fly at times, and roll with things when I have a minor setback. Because no mater how detailed we plan something it will never go that way all the time.

So if you are upset of the way things are going, plan to change them, because the DMs only help facilitate them. I am always a will participant in a game of chess, and know that if it is against the BH, I will be planning my own defenses and counter strikes, it is not the DMs.

That is it for my rant, I hate having to do this on my IPhone.

[cmosier]

I'll defend the Black Hand. I'm really new to a lot of this DM involvement stuff. I've never actually played a character who had the ability to alter things the way he can. So, I've made several mistakes, both as a player and as a character. That being said, Aquor has given me some insight as a player and I've been able to turn that into some decent RP, at least I hope so.

As GD said. It's player driven.

[GodBeastX]

We are using numbers and statistics for more than just player involvement too. It helps keep DMs on the same page.

For anyone who has been a DM on a server, you'll probably nod your head in agreement to this, but when you are DMing in Sundren it is nothing like pen & Paper. In P&P you can simply make up things whenever and it'll be valid because you are the only DM, but when you have a staff of DMs trying to tell the same story, things can become out of sync.

We try to coordinate as best we can but sometimes things are just lost in translation. Just to give you an idea, someone didn't know Blackwood had a leader that wasn't Jamahrri. Why? Because we wrote that info two years ago and the post got pushed to history.

It's very easy for a small thing or miscommunication to spread to everbody, so concrete information helps us and it helps you as players to decide how best to help your factions.

Now, I wanted to to point out that I tend to look at dungeon crawling as quasi-OOC. What I mean by that is, if we total the number of bloodmaim and argyle demons, spittlefist goblins and more players have slain over the years then Sundren would be cleared out of all evil a long time ago. It's be a funny history book if it read "And so the demons all came at the heroes in groups of 3 for an eternity until the abyss was empty".

Certainly players are welcome to say they killed demons and what not, but we're not using Dungeon Crawling in any metrics for that reason. We will, however, have some stats on these places so they can be used in plotlines and feel coherent with the rest of the server.

Also, we did scale up gold to pretty much be copper, Laurk. This wasn't merely because players had a ton of gold, but also because we can't represent copper and silver in prices otherwise. 7 gold for a pint of ale, you just spent someone's monthly income.

I personally want to give the staff a round of applause, because they've all been pitching in a great deal to add to Sundren, and sometimes tons of it is behind the scenes where players don't tend to see so it goes without that fuzzy feeling when players get to enjoy it.

[thaelis]

Also, we did scale up gold to pretty much be copper, Laurk. This wasn't merely because players had a ton of gold, but also because we can't represent copper and silver in prices otherwise. 7 gold for a pint of ale, you just spent someone's monthly income.

So, if a Heavy Wagon costs 100gp in Pathfinder it would be about 10,000 Sundren "stags" right? And a Sailing ship (10,000gp) 1,000,000 stags.

I've often wondered why adventurers don't just start up businesses with those ridiculous amounts of gold. I guess that's why!

Or were you just throwing out a ballpark figure there? I think x20 or x50 would probably be enough, x100 does seem a little excessive, since it puts buying some things (e.g. the sailing ship) out of reach of almost all players.

[GodBeastX]

So, if a Heavy Wagon costs 100gp in Pathfinder it would be about 10,000 Sundren "stags" right? And a Sailing ship (10,000gp) 1,000,000 stags.

I've often wondered why adventurers don't just start up businesses with those ridiculous amounts of gold. I guess that's why!

Or were you just throwing out a ballpark figure there? I think x20 or x50 would probably be enough, x100 does seem a little excessive, since it puts buying some things (e.g. the sailing ship) out of reach of almost all players.

It's not exactly 100 to 1, but it HAS been scaled up. I think it's actually 50x right now.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Something along those lines, but it's not that high. I think the standard average income for a healthy city is around 400 stags per month

[GodBeastX]

Something along those lines, but it's not that high. I think the standard average income for a healthy city is around 400 stags per month

You mean for an individual, not the city

[[DM] Grinning Death]

What he said ^

[sonuvalich]

With regard to troop and population numbers, can you pretty please give Sundren half a chance at not being completely taken over by the Black Hand? 'cause that seems to be the direction the plot is headed.

I know this is off-topic, but I find this statement alarming. My glance at the wiki gives Sestra a population of 1,215 while Sundren City has over ten times as many citizens. Both militaries sounds roughly evenly matched. So in that regard, I cannot see the Hand completely taking over in a 1-on-1.

The difference is, I see the Hand working to make allies and to stamp down rising threats that could later be deciding factors in (i.e. Byrun and his rag tag army of inbetweeners.) I have not seen as much of this from the "good guys" lately and it sometimes seems like there is an attitude of the good guys should win because they are the good guys, and it's the staff's fault if that doesn't happen. However, the good guys also don't involve me in their plans because I am a bald bastard, so I may be missing relevant data.

Regardless, I think "victory" in terms of who runs the valley is a complicated assortment of variables. The biggest factor seems to be the number/ferocity of active players in a faction. You also have to include the practicality of the schemes the players utilize, the effects of OTHER players' schemes which can have ripple effects on your own, and what makes for a good story. If this is like "The Avengers" and the good guys win solely because they are too awesome for overwhelming odds to matter, I see a lack of narrative. If the good guys suffer heartache, defeat, loss, and grievous injury and then overcome it...it makes the final victory so much more meaningful.

So rant aside, I appreciate the staff's metrics here. Empirical data is never a bad go-to source for a starting point in scheming. Now I can tell at a glance what sort of odds I would face if I wanted to start strategizing a siege of Port Avanthyr or the liberation of Sestra to not have a go-between blocking our worthless lizard-infested mining operation. Then I can figure out whose palms to grease, what enemies to engage in misdirection and subterfuge, etc. And then with all that math and RP intent, I can dive in and see if it goes tits up or not, which is where I find the fun to be in machinations: trying to ride the lightning.


(P.S. I do love the Avengers and Whedon, but there are some big holes in that movie that I overlook every time simply because of all the ass-kicking fanboy-placating action I wanted to see)

[cmosier]

I so want to elaborate on Liches point, but this isn't the thread for it. I'll just say I agree him. The DMs are working hard on getting us information. It's up to us to use it.

[Vaelek]

Good guy role-play is certainly being done to help create buffers against Black Hand, bald guys certainly aren't in the know. But as a disclaimer for those that seem to miss this role-play, generally neither are non-faction oriented characters.

It's not the purpose of this thread to argue this sort of thing, but different factions are working hard to ensure the balance remains balanced until such time that they're ready to tip it. It's awesome that the DMs are supporting this by adding numbers to help make such efforts relevant and cohesive.

So, again, thank you DM staff. It's much appreciated.

[Grand Unified Theory]

With regard to troop and population numbers, can you pretty please give Sundren half a chance at not being completely taken over by the Black Hand? 'cause that seems to be the direction the plot is headed.

What's wrong with decorating the cities in black, green, and red and giving you some dead friends to play with?