Upcomming Language Changes

[Grigori]

I say...
Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Ignan, and Infernal should only be available to clerics.

How exactly do Clerics qualify for those languages over oh... let's just say Abyssal, Celestial, and Infernal for Warlocks... Aquan, Auran, Ignan for Druids...

I see no reason why a Tiefling or Aasimar couldn't research their heritage and learn the language and have it as part of why they are without DM approval... It's like a Dwarf that grew up in human society knowing Dwarvish... or a half-orc knowing orcish... I agree there should be limitations, however, those limitations seem to be debilitating the uniqueness of certain groups that would not abuse something like that and would be willing to write a VERY in-depth roleplay reasoning behind why they had that certain language.

There are more critical things to worry about than languages right now, but I do agree, out of all of this, the DC check for understanding languages should be raised by a serious degree. I get tired of people understanding Infernal, Abyssal, and Celestial just because they pass a lore check...

[Scarlett]

Ya...the language of an angel should be pretty hard to learn, let alone understand...

[Kuroboshi]

Ya...the language of an angel should be pretty hard to learn, let alone understand...

How so? On what part of the DnD system to you base this judgement? What part of the book of exalted deeds, the book of vile darkness, the fiend folio, the main core rules, the fiendish codexes, or any other book dealing with the planes, or with languages, states this?

First off, there are no angels in DnD, at all. Celestials are just a race of extraplanar beings that serve the deities of good. They are the types of beings found on the good-aligned outer planes. The main celestial template in the monster manual is meant to be applied to all beings from the outer planes from the earth worms, to the horses, to the rest. If you go to Celestia, you will find celestial versions of everything.

Secondly, there is no reason given anywhere, in any printed source material for 3rd edition, that states that the langauges of beings of other planes are any more, or less, complex, hard to understand, or hard to use, than any other languages in use. That means celestial, abyssal, ignan, auran, etc, are all just languages, nothing more, and nothing less. Some are harder than others I would assume, just as some modern and ancient langauges of our world are harder than others but, there is nothing what-so-ever to say that Celestial is any more difficult a language than say ... Draconic, for example. Just because a language is foreign does not make it harder.

Some languages are more secretive than others but that's about it, as far as DnD is concerned. The only reason Thieves Cant is not well known is because thieves don't teach it to non-thieves, that's it. Druidic is not taught to non-druids. They are not more complex, harder to learn, tied to class features/abilties, or anything else. Nothing keeps them from the general public except secrecy. Even then, someone with a parent of that type may well have been taught it growing up even if not a member of that class. If you have two druid parents you may have heard it around the house. Lots of people learn languages native to their parent's culture that way, even when such languages are not used in the place they themselves grow up.

I still don't understand. The person I used to play Bridge with taught linquistics in Spanish and Russian. He also spoke Serbocroatian(sp), English and French fluently, with little accent, and also knew enough to converse in a couple other languages. He taught his son Spanish, Russian, and English, and was working on another one when last I knew the family. English and French are Canada's only two official languages, and you can't learn either Spanish or Russian in Jr. or Sr. high school in the city that man lives in, the one I grew up in, yet his son speaks both fluently. I learned French in school growing up, and Japanese in university. People who want to in our modern, mundane, normal, world will go out and learn other languages, if they have the desire. It generally gets easier after the first couple, unless the new one has really odd grammar or writing compared to the others, like Japanese compared to English.

In the game, we are talking about a magical, fantasy, setting, not the real world and its limitations. So why the big deal over PCs knowing planar languages? Seriously, I am not being sarcastic here at all. So a bunch of PCs all know elven, or celestial, or draconic ... so what? We have wizards casting fireballs, and some fighter speaking Celestial because his cleric mother taught it to him breaks the setting somehow?!? I just don't get it. Why is this such a big deal to people? It is a very standard part of the PnP game in 3rd edition Forgotten Realms, which is what NWN is based on. Why do people want it to be hard, or rare, or not done? What's the big deal here? What is it I am missing?

Intelligence scores higher than 11 are uncommon in the game world. PCs tend to have an average of 12, or higher, in their stats. "The average ability score for the typical commoner is 10 or 11, but your character is not typical. The most common ability scores for player characters (PCs) are 12 and 13. (That's right, the average player character is above average)" (PHB page 7) PnP considers less than that a total of all ability score modifiers of 0 or less to be a non-viable character, which should then be re-rolled (PHB page 8); as the PC would not live as an adventurer. So we know from teh beginning these characters are not your average person.

Most adventuring types die in their first one or two forays. The ones who do live are all exceptional beings. Many are very exceptional. The older DnD editions actually gave suggested stats that said about 90% of adventurers died in their first year, and that to live and make a living as an adventurer was the mark of a rare and exceptional being. If adventuring were easy there would be a lot of high level characters all over. But if you look at the number of beings over level 5, vs the total population, the numbers are exceptionally small. There just are not that many of them out there.

By surviving long enough to even reach level 10-12 (where you were supposed to retire in first edition, and hit "name-level", which also meant you were famous enough to be known throughout the land for your deeds) the PCs show themselves to have beaten the long shot. They have shown that, by population, they pretty much are 1 in a million, or about 1 in 100,000 using the lower population demographics in 3rd edition Forgotten Realms. So, after going to such lengths to show how different from the average person all the PCs are from demographics in DnD give us ... small wonder many of them can speak an extra language or two that some common folk who only work in a bakery all day don't use...

I am not trying to be a jerk, nor do I mean any disrespect of any kind to anyone here, in any way. I just can't figure out why suddenly all these languages should be hard to understand, or learn, or use, when they aren't in the real game? Why intelligent PCs understanding lots of languages is an issue, when many intelligent and educated people in the real world know more than one language too, if they want to. It just seems so odd to me that this is even an issue.

Not sure if I'll ever understand it,

Kuroboshi.

[Maxx Powers]

You know, i like all this chatter about the languages, its very interesting, but we could all just be responsible people. If changes can be made after character creation then disputes, addition, and subtraction of languages can be handled by DM's.

I don't personally like the idea that human PCs can choose elven as a bonus language as easily as they can choose a non regional human language

I believe i mentioned this elsewhere, but maybe a certain int modifier requirement should be implemeted for certain languages. Like if a human fighter wants to learn Draconic, he'd better have something like a +4. Actually my point is that something like this could be done for elven, with a +2. You'd think a certain level of intellect would be required for certain languages.

[Ralek]

I believe i mentioned this elsewhere, but maybe a certain int modifier requirement should be implemeted for certain languages. Like if a human fighter wants to learn Draconic, he'd better have something like a +4. Actually my point is that something like this could be done for elven, with a +2. You'd think a certain level of intellect would be required for certain languages.

Hmm, actually I like this idea pretty much. It adds a certain difficulty to learn specific languages, insuring that no halforc barbarian will start off with draconic.

I imagine, orc and goblin would be like, maybe int 6 to learn, elvish int 11-12, draconic, 15+.

As well as a good reason to put points into that INT attribute besides skill points and better roleplaying options

[Cheatcake]

Gah if I get X's okay I can post a thread with languages and regions which might make it a lot easier It's basically a list with races, regions and what languages they get for free and available as bonus from being born/spending most of your life there

[Kroax]

Chondathan, Chessentan, Illuskan, and all that?
That would be interesting...

I'd choose Illuskan and Chondathan with Kindra in a heartbeat if I had the choice.

[Dark presence]

I really don't see the point of restricting languages beyond what the PHB says. I think INT bonus languages basically come down to things you were taught in your youth.
So the 12 int half orc from a small town learns draconic. Well maybe he worked for the only wizard in town for several years before coming to Sundren. But he won't know any other languages. I don't see the problem with that.

[Cheatcake]

I think people get a bit irked when languages supposed to be rare on most of Abeir-Toril get known by anyone Writting an excuse in a bio is really easy, so just doing that is a bit complicated. Anyone can write that their half-orc barbarian lived with a half-demon wizard who owned a celestial slave and want to speak draconic, abyssal and celestial in one go

[Woodelf7734]

I think people get a bit irked when languages supposed to be rare on most of Abeir-Toril get known by anyone Writting an excuse in a bio is really easy, so just doing that is a bit complicated. Anyone can write that their half-orc barbarian lived with a half-demon wizard who owned a celestial slave and want to speak draconic, abyssal and celestial in one go

You are right, and that is the lamest excuse for a character, ANYONE can use.

This is Sundren people, a fairly new civilization in Icewind Dale, close to the Spine of the World.

I am sorry but in my opinion, grand mages who who have come in contact with higher planes and speak celestial, petty gnomes who have been raised by giants and speak giant, or a dwarf who has somehow come under training of a demon to learn abyssal DO NOT BELONG HERE. So no, your character has not sailed the seas from a far away mystical land. It's just Sundren, people are not going to come from across the world to get here.

This isn't a freak show, it's a common settlement founded and raised by a normal wizard and normal people. Please stop with the extravagant and amazing characters who know this, that, and everything. Try to be realistic with your character based on the region of Sundren and the population it consists of.

Also remember that Sundren's location is merely impossible to reach by ship, the only entrance is through the gate that Mundus created, through or from inside the treacherous mountains, or from somewhere below.

I like that GBX has recognized this issue in the Languages system, and hoep he finds a way to make everyone happy.

[Ithildur]

You are right, and that is the lamest excuse for a character, ANYONE can use.

This is Sundren people, a fairly new civilization in Icewind Dale, close to the Spine of the World.

I am sorry but in my opinion, grand mages who who have come in contact with higher planes and speak celestial, petty gnomes who have been raised by giants and speak giant, or a dwarf who has somehow come under training of a demon to learn abyssal DO NOT BELONG HERE. So no, your character has not sailed the seas from a far away mystical land. It's just Sundren, people are not going to come from across the world to get here.

This isn't a freak show, it's a common settlement founded and raised by a normal wizard and normal people. Please stop with the extravagant and amazing characters who know this, that, and everything. Try to be realistic with your character based on the region of Sundren and the population it consists of.

Also remember that Sundren's location is merely impossible to reach by ship, the only entrance is through the gate that Mundus created, through or from inside the treacherous mountains, or from somewhere below.

I like that GBX has recognized this issue in the Languages system, and hoep he finds a way to make everyone happy.

Overall I agree, the more ridiculous premises for languages and other perks should not be encouraged, but as far as the reasons/area lore... actually, some of these things were being discusses by staff, as far as travel to the area by ship, etc. As far as I'm aware at this point travel by ship to the area is assumed to be perfectly viable; look at the port area sometime and all the ships docked there.

Also recall the ooc area conversation that asks if your pc arrived by land or by sea, and if they are residents or travelers. One can safely assume I think that a sizable percentage of adventurer types might be from different areas outside of Sundren, especially as it's a relatively newly established area... but like I said before, someone better have a really convincing bio if they're claiming their PC is from Dambrath and knows Undercommon.

Lot of very opinionated posts on this thread; I'd recommend ending the endless debate by sticking fairly close to the FR guidelines for starting languages.

[skyde]

Lot of very opinionated posts on this thread; I'd recommend ending the endless debate by sticking fairly close to the FR guidelines for starting languages.

I am skyde and I approve of this message!

Just don't take language:animal away from gnomes! Or how is Drago going to talk to his squirrel friends? Seriously I'd like to see some of the regional languages popping up.

[Woodelf7734]

That is true, there is the option of of land or sea. Which contradicts the History section stating that it is near impossible.

Hmm

[Cheatcake]

but like I said before, someone better have a really convincing bio if they're claiming their PC is from Dambrath and knows Undercommon.

Lot of very opinionated posts on this thread; I'd recommend ending the endless debate by sticking fairly close to the FR guidelines for starting languages.

lol, thanks for the poke But realize that going by the guidelines you want, being from that region would make knowing that tongue the same as being from Aglarond and knowing Damaran: common

[skyde]

That is true, there is the option of of land or sea. Which contradicts the History section stating that it is near impossible.

Hmm

It actually says somewhere that it was impossible but nowadays sundren mariners know the "secret" dangerous route. Check Avanthyr description from teh wiki.