Upcomming Language Changes

[GodBeastX]

And, just a thought, Half Drow, what languages do they know?

Beg no one sees them and puts them out of their misery?

[Cheatcake]

That sounds like a tricky language But seriously, they get elven as racial, again because all elven subraces speak that, drow included

[Ithildur]

This is actually a pretty complicated topic, the evolution of drow language and undercommon and related languages both verbal and written from surface elven, but let's not muddy the waters here. The point is what languages should be available to who in Sundren within the scope of the setting, teh DMFI, and GBX's sanity while juggling numerous other issues.

My suggestions if DMFI is what we continue to use:

1. Up the lore DC, if we do keep it, to be very steep. people with high lore skills will easily hit rolls in the 30's regularly.

2. All PCs get Racial, Common (undercommon too if youre a underdark race), and maybe one regional that makes sense for Sundren (choice of chondathan, Iluskan, maybe one more, a barbaric language of the north?).

If your PC is thayan, for example, you don't get Thayan but you can RP/type it out, ie (thayan) hi, my name is joe. The DMFI is limited enough I do this already half the time anyway with longer dialog.

3. Orc, gnoll, goblin, are common/mundane enough that they can be left as is I think, if you wish to choose one for your INT bonus language

4. Add a number of INT bonus languages that are restricted by class/race requirement close to FR rules. Something like the following could be enforced (it's a very simplified version of the FR available bonus languages list to make GBX's life easier)

Elves - can learn gnome, halfling, Sylvan
Dwarves - can learn giant, goblin, gnome
Drow -drow sign language, abyssal, draconic
Gnome - dwarven, draconic, Terran
Halflings - elven, dwarven,
Half elf - any of the above except drow sign and other secret languages (i.e. Druidic)
Human - any of the above except drow sign and other secret languages (i.e. Druidic)
Druids - sylvan
wizards - Draconic

Finally, clerics would gain a pick of celestial/infernal/abyssal for free, and druids get druidic for free; this is pretty standard.

Anyone that wants their PC to know languages beyond the above would have to have it in their bio with approval, or RP learning the language with approval.

[Ithildur]

There are whole human settlements built near the entrance of caves that lead to picked parts of the Underdark On the other end there are whole comercial settlements from various underdark races who trade with surfacers, like an underground baazar The everyday baker wouldn't go down there, but it's still far from unheard of. There are even undercommon speaking "neighborhoods" under certain big, famous cities, underground harbors and all

PS: Sorry to contradict you, but it is available as a starting language in a few regions like Dambrath, Galena Montains and Smoking Mountains (the last two are more suited for gold dwarves, but not restricted to them)

I understand. I'm not saying it doesn't exist; don't be silly. the question is, how common are these people in Faerun, and more importantly, how common are they in Sunden? It's not like every region in Faerun has a corner Undercommon Bookstore. Specificly in Sundren, there is at this point NO known access to the Underdark, although that may very likely change if I guess correctly. So where would all these non Drow people that know Undercommon be coming from?

If I were a DM, I'd look very closely at a PC who claims to be from Dambrath being in Sundren and knowing Undercommon to see if it makes sense, or if they're just trying to get an edge in.

[Ichbin]

(One) of my Humans knows Undercommon....too bad he cant talk to Drow with it!

[Sathayorn]

Anyone that wants their PC to know languages beyond the above would have to have it in their bio with approval, or RP learning the language with approval.

Wouldnt they need a reason to know the language anyways? Shouldnt it be in their Bio, regardless what language it is?

[Ithildur]

Wouldnt they need a reason to know the language anyways? Shouldnt it be in their Bio, regardless what language it is?

Not necessarily for the commonly known languages listed on that VERY short list; of course they could choose to put that in for enrichment.

i.e. a wood elf knowing Sylvan, well, that's like a texan speaking spanish. no need to put some elaborate explanation for it. a Shield Dwarf knowing sylvan however, would require some explanation.

[Sathayorn]

Elves - can learn gnome, halfling, Sylvan
Dwarves - can learn giant, goblin, gnome
Drow -drow sign language, abyssal, draconic
Gnome - dwarven, draconic, Terran
Halflings - elven, dwarven,
Half elf - any of the above except drow sign
Human - any of the above except drow sign
Druids - sylvan
wizards - Draconic

So a human could know Abyssal, Druidic, sylvan and dwarven... And not need to explain?

[Ithildur]

I just wrote out the simplified list based on some standard FR bonus language lists. Only Druids know Druidic.

Human/half elves are rather exceptional in the flexibility they have; just like they have more flexibility with multiclassing, they get a lot more leeway in DnD as far as skills and languages, but I agree, some of the more exotic languages like Abyssal should have some background. That includes Undercommon, which definitely needs background imo. A human knowing dwarven or elven, that would be good to have in the bio, but not an absolute requirement if I understand the FR sources. I mean, if your PC speaks elven and an elf asks 'where did you learn it?', it'd be a good idea to have something prepared, but I suppose you can also come up with a reason on the spot.

Stuff like this, in PnP a DM can rule case by case more easily with a handful of players; with a PW and dozens of players, some of us who constantly push the edge of what's reasonable intentionally or not, it's tricker to officiate, which is why I suggested a rather simple and short list.

Having said that, Drow sign and Druidic, unless they are a druid, would be virtually impossible for humans/half elves to know. And please... 'my human PC was a drow slave and escaped to the surface and so he learned drow sign language' is extremely unlikely. One, it's not a normal language drow use for everyday household duties, it's more like a military code; drow would not teach it to a non drow slave. Two, a lvl 1-3 slave escaping drow captors... well, let's just say CG drow rangers of Miellikki would be about as common as that happening. It'd better be a hell of a story to explain it.

[Scarlett]

I can back my characters knowledge of Celestial.

[Kuroboshi]

Personally I like the rules in the Forgotten Realms Compendium and hope the DMFI can reflect them. As someone said above, you get common (which is a trade tongue /only/ and not for discussing philophy, or anything technical), your regional language (which is a full language) and your racial language (if not human) for free. Then one per point of intelligence modifier. They give lists for race and region and some classes get a couple others like draconic for wizards since many early magic texts are in draconic as they taught magic to the other races in the distant past.

I like the different regional and racial selections as they are in PnP. As for good reason to learn a language, it being spoken in the region or a nearby one, or a tradeing partner is a pretty good one. As is general interest. I took intensive Japanese in university just because I felt like it, was studying Aikdio, and enjoy Japanse Manga and Anime. By the rules of "good reason" some are giving here, I could not have that language in the game setting. *scratches head*

First level elves start at around 120 years of age. Pretty likely they will have picked up a language or two, or three, in that time. As well, really high intelligence characters like wizards, or highly skilled rogues or warriors, will likely pick up a bunch too. Mercenaries and rogues that travel widely will have to learn the local languages as a matter of course and this happens in the real world to this day. Anyone going to another country for only a year or two often picks up the language as they live there. It is easy to see people learning many languages.

Priests tend to learn the langauge of Celestials to communicate with them, or the lower planes and their lanaguages for the same purpose, as appropriate. They also tend to learn their enemy's languages as needed. A spy would need to learn the language of the country, or force, spied upon. Also, Draconic is spoken by kobolds and many lizard folk. Any ranger with favoured enemy in any of those races likely learns their language.

I really can't see why people knowing several languages is a big deal. Only things like theives cant or druidic are really restricted, and those are noted in PnP as not being available as bonus language selections unless one has that class.

It would take a lot of work, and may not be worth it, but implementing the various regional langauges and regional and racial selections would be my choice of how to go. I don't think the system is broken or needs fixing, just adding to. Then have characters choose where they are from and use the appropriate region of their raising and their race to determine what languages they can learn. I choose all my character languages this way even when making them up for NWN servers.

My two cents anyway,

Kuroboshi.

[Ithildur]

I would be very happy with a straight up implementation of the FRCS. I'm also trying to make life easier for GBX or whoever mods the DMFI... which is why I put up a shorter list of the bonus languages, and suggested that additional languages can be available via biography approval/RP approval... EXCEPT the ones that are clearly prohibited like druidic and nearly impossible to learn like drow sign language.

[Sathayorn]

Its not knowing the number of language, is the languages chosen by the players in general, on all the servers I've been on, draconic and elven were the most common languages.

Elven, alright, thats fine, Elves are quite common in most areas, though, Draconic? People really overpick this language, as well as Abyssal and such, with no real reason for them to have it.

The worst part, as someone has mentioned before, is abyssal, celestial and draconic being used for small talk, not really common languages. Even the more common languages should be used with discression.

Now, elves for example, may wish to speak to eachother in elven, it is, of course, their native tongue, allowing them to speak far more naturally in it. On the other hand, a half orc and a dwarf suddenly conversing in elven makes little sense, if any at all.

[Ithildur]

I understand.

Maybe I'm not making things very clear, but look, the reason why I suggested the short list, is because it will make life easier for GBX while limiting who can pick what language. Take a look again at my suggestion post; note that it LIMITS, for example, joe the dwarven fighter just because his INT is 14, cannot automaticly know Draconic at PC creation. Joe the human wizard, with INT 14, CAN. As can Sam the drow fighter with INT 12, though that might be more questionable, it is allowed. That's per the FRCS iirc.

If we go with the longer list provided by FRCS, that's fine, it does the same thing, limiting who can learn Draconic, for example. It's a much much more comprehensive list however and will be more involved which would be very very enriching from a RP perspective but also much more work to implement with the DMFI I'm guessing.

I don't personally like the idea that human PCs can choose elven as a bonus language as easily as they can choose a non regional human language, but that's what the FRCS allows; 3rd ed especially, makes humans very very versatile which translates into very uber under 3rd edition's pick and choose system. It's more or less legal, along with munchkinning many different kinds of crazy multiclass combinations, which makes judicial calls by DMs even more vital.

Is this clear?

[Keskul]

No one besides a rogue should know theives can't IMO...