OOC Knowledge, Skills and Metagaming

[Urithrand]

I have a request to make here from you guys. I've noticed that there are some characters who will use RP dice rolling, and there are some that don't. That's fine, I'm not going to impose any rules one way or the other, but there's a few things that I'd really like everyone to respect with knowledge skills, whether you roll them or not.

• Firstly, is OOC knowledge. I've seen this happen loads of times, and a few players may have been stung with an exp penalty by me for doing this. I'm not going to make any personal accusations here, I think the people that do this probably already know who they are. The other day I was running an event, and I asked the group to roll knowledge: Arcana. They all replied "I don't have that skill, I can't." This was fine, and the event would have continued along a different route, except there were no less than 3 players who then started to talk as if they were lifelong experts on magic. Don't do it kids. If you don't have the knowledge mechanically, then you don't have that knowledge ICly. Period.
• This one's just a personal bugbear really, and it's born of years of D&D playing in various formats. Character reactions to situations. Another occasion recently, I was in a party with someone shapeshifted into a troll, a summoned nightmare and all sorts of weird s*** going on. A character hapened to "bump into us" (which of course I have no problem with). The problem here was the character's reaction: "Hi! What are you guys doing here?". This is purely an example of my point. Not every player on the server would freak out at seeing something like this. But my problem is, I very rarely see *anyone* freak out at a scene like this laid out before them, they just calmly say hello and wander past.... is this really an IC reaction to this scene...?
• Rolling, then ignoring the result. Another example here was when I saw someone roll a fortitude to see if they were drunk. The player rolled a 7, then emoted *still sober as a judge*. Had I been on the DM client, this character would have been promptly knocked on their backside steaming drunk whether they liked it or not. Please, nobody's forcing you to make rolls like these, but if you're going to do it, accept it when it goes bad. It makes the RP *much* more interesting.

Please nobody see any of these points as a personal attack, this message is to the entire server and I am just requesting that no matter how good an RPer you are, just sit back and reflect on how these examples might apply to your character. "I don't speak good English" or "My character is too apathetic / evil / stupid to respond to those situations" is nonsense. Put a flaming, rotting undead horse in front of a mindless foreign moron, he'll still freak out. Just think about it, that's all I'm asking

[Lanemeyer]

Yeah
If Andy spot a nightmare running freely around, she will probably engage it, and Kristal will just freak out and run like a child :P

[Verrath]

I have nightmares all the time...

Seriously. I've had the same experience with my druid. Standing there in the viridale, transformed into a dire bear, and GROWLING at two humans. When taken in context it was all harmless but there is no way a passerby would know this.

Someone runs past, waves, "Hi guys!" and heads onward to grind in the Mossclaw meet.

Not cool.

[TamurtheLame]

I was witness to a nighmare spawn while we were in party and the nightmare actually did help the party, but because it was against the RP of my character and his alignment, I was completely surprised to see it, then asked where it came from, then told the person to never spawn the creature around me again.

I would have either left the party/area, told the Red Blades who the person was that was spawning infernal creatures, or something worse.

Did this spawn help our survival, yes, but my character could not stand the spawn and thus put a stop to it......

[TheBrogueadier]

+1 on the above statements..

Something like a Nightmare, or any demonic summoning, would probably rate just above creating undead warriors in terms of social impact - A nightmare is a demonic inhabitant of the lower planes, evil and malignant. Summoning up demons and binding is the kind of thing that can seriously put a damper of your social calender and dance card (and much like summoning undead I'd say that if your silly enough to go summoning things like that a lot around people then don't be suprised if you end up on the bad end of a torch and pitchfork weilding mob).

In my mind the same goes for Wild shapes / Polymorphs (as V has pointed out), some animal summons and / or animal companions (excuse me but you appear to be being persued by a fat boar / wild looking wolf) and especially Dinosaurs.

A few 100lb of razor toothed, sharp clawed, mad bird looking reptile.. That deserves more than a raised eyebrow or smiley 'Hello!'

[Product of Void]

Umm...actually it all makes perfect sense and I rather like were this is going.

Skill points are what make power builds, Rp wusses. No skill points no skill.

While players focus on their charactors DMs focus on plots and events. Unless uber stupidity occurs Dms are going to run their events, and the story will go on.

Staff have made some REALLY cool stuff one of them is a spell *detect shapeshift*. If I was a higher level caster I might try that if a group of freaks came my way. Otherwise I would ready an attack, or run like hell.

*tries the jedi mind trick* "there is no names above things."

[Xeesheava]

+1 on the above statements..

Something like a Nightmare, or any demonic summoning, would probably rate just above creating undead warriors in terms of social impact - A nightmare is a demonic inhabitant of the lower planes, evil and malignant. Summoning up demons and binding is the kind of thing that can seriously put a damper of your social calender and dance card (and much like summoning undead I'd say that if your silly enough to go summoning things like that a lot around people then don't be suprised if you end up on the bad end of a torch and pitchfork weilding mob).

In my mind the same goes for Wild shapes / Polymorphs (as V has pointed out), some animal summons and / or animal companions (excuse me but you appear to be being persued by a fat boar / wild looking wolf) and especially Dinosaurs.

A few 100lb of razor toothed, sharp clawed, mad bird looking reptile.. That deserves more than a raised eyebrow or smiley 'Hello!'

About Casting and Reaction:

There is always a way to DM Punish a guy without having to kill it.
Just simply like:

Casting on Cities: 5 Chaotic Points
Casting Undead on Cities: 5 Chaotic & Evil Points
Casting Undead out of the Cities: 5 Evil Points.

Gradually the guy will have an alignment shift. Worked for us in the Schild.

About OOCLY Knowledge:

Don't be assholes.

[Zoberraz]

I understand some of the points of views offered by this thread, but some assumptions behind them are also naive.

I recall when Maia met Amenia and Clive Tarsus. The former had this flaming nightmare horse that was pounding the crap out of bad guys and the latter was someone Maia had seen before having a Baneguard around to assist him. Both cases profoundly disgust her, but then again showing someone your hand isn't always good.

In that instance, Maia had a eyes widening moment and then whatever ill reaction she might have had and noted that since they appeared to share enemies, perhaps they should join forces. Why? Painting oneself as an ally seemed like a damned good idea at the time, and being able to see what the two of them were capable of was potentially good information for if she met them in less favorable circumstances in the future.

Seeing that other players aren't privy to a character's thoughts, it's not the kind of thing that needs to typically be emoted in such cases. I really don't think controlling one's reaction in the face of something is an element which needs be be covered by skill rolls as well (though a good sense motive roll from another party would definitely deserve some insight in that).

That's my take on it. Just pointing out that keeping a straight face in such instance sometimes looks like the sensible thing to do, really.

[Zoberraz]

Seeing we're covering the topic of metagaming... there was another thing I wanted to broach: Walking by other people and how you should react in such instance.

Generally, when I play Maia, I have her move around places such as Sundren city, the Exigo Trade Post, taverns and other public places... and she might walk across some other person. There are instances where Maia will simply walk past and will not address the other person.

Now, I've had one recent instance of another guy passing Maia by and seeing that she did not really acknowledge his presence and emoted that she crossed her arms and waited for her companions (because she had walked ahead), the guy emoted an eyeroll at the 'antisocial' elf and walked away.

So, let me phrase this more clearly: walking by people silently and with little acknowledgment is not supposed to be impolite. We do it all the time: walking through school corridors, through our workplaces and when shopping downtown. We don't salute strangers right off the bat and there are some more familiar faces that aren't even acquaintances that we might briefly look at and still ignore. There are other people whom might nod and that might elicit a similar reaction from the other (if only as a returned show of politeness) and if there are people you do know now it becomes much more probable that acquaintances will stop by, salute each other and start chatting.

Places like the trade tier of Sundren is filled with people; much more than the actual in-game engine can support. When you see another player character walking around, it isn't exceptional - there should be plenty of other passerby. If that person walks by silently, he's not only ignoring you but also a lot of other people as he goes along his business and that's quite mundane - everyone typically has a daily routine to follow, or things that keep them busy if they want to live and make ends meet.

Furthermore, that lack of acknowledgment can also hint at other things. Perhaps one character sees another as frequenting seedy company, has an antipathy against him, sees him as trouble waiting to happen and does not want to be involved with him. Perfectly valid motivations which go beyond the label 'antisocial'.

[Captain Caveman]

A few 100lb of razor toothed, sharp clawed, mad bird looking reptile.. That deserves more than a raised eyebrow or smiley 'Hello!'

Plutarch thanks you. I thought a hin riding such a thing would have caused more commotion ( as well as summoning it by throwing handfuls of meat in the air).

People react like the damn thing is an over-size gecko.

Edit--Except for you Pericles and my favorite druid couple Ann and Os *Thumps chest*

[Urithrand]

Please don't derail the thread and use it as a way to have your own personal moan. This was about several very specific things which we perceive to be a problem, if a somewhat niggling one.

Xeesh, I know you're trying to be helpful, but I really hope this is something that we can improve on without threatening to punish people and getting angry.

It's a very simple problem, and anyone who considers themselves to be a good role-player will understand that this isn't all about other people, it's about ourselves. We need to to stop thinking "God, everyone else sucks" and start looking at our own RP to see how we can improve.

I know this goes against everything people believe in, but the way forward is not to criticise others, it's to improve ourselves. I have discovered that making a big fuss when a demon is summoned will make other players go "Crap, that is a bit weird... someone just summoned a big ass monster..." and they too will RP the situation responsibly.

And Zoberraz, I did say that this is not necessarily applicable to everyone. Biddle, an evil sage/mage/know-it-all would never bat an eyelid at someone summoning the evils into the prime. But most people would.

[Jai_V]

Most things stated, I completely agree with. I especially get sick and tired of the rolls being made, the results being ignored (be they favorable or unfavorable). My one "bugbear," in this case, is the reactions expectations.

I both agree and disagree with the idea that some people would be freaked out by odd occurances. However, this is a fantasy world where it's common knowledge dragons can swoop out of the sky and eat you (though that's a bit erroneous), a demon might pop-up out of nowhere and try to harangue you for your soul, or some tentacle-faced abomination may try to eat your brain. It's OOC knowledge that these events are not random (unless you got the corresponding "Knowledge" skill to back that up) and, while I can't speak for players of dwarves, elves, half-elves, half-orcs, etc., human beings tend to be on the side of curious, even in the face of danger.

I saw an example of this last night when we had an inmate light a small fire in the Hole (our "Administrative Segregation" or "Solitary Confinement" area). Here my staff is, trying to clear the area and contain the fire with extinguishers, and everybody else on the unit (staff or inmate) wants to run in and see what's going on, despite people running out of the building shouting "Fire! Fire!"

This imparts on me that at least some characters would be subject to little more then raised eyebrow and a wide-berth or other may actively rush into to inspect the huge, flaming horse-like monstrosity. :-) But my judgement may be just a bit colored by the sheer amount of human stupidity I've witnessed.

[Product of Void]

[Urithrand]

That pic is totally awesome. *yoink*!

[Product of Void]

Knights of the dinner table is an awesome comic. Wish I still was getting them. but fond memories of the ones i have.