RPing disguises

[Gortrum]

It occured to me yesterday that I am unsure of how exactly to RP being in disguise. What is required for a character to be deemed sufficiently disguised so they would most likely not be recognized upon future interactions with whomever sees them? A different set of clothes and a helmet/mask? is that sufficient? Should one also make some sort of IC description so whoever they are with knows that they cant tell who they really are?

[Glare Bear]

Also have to consider the great equalizer being someone's voice. It's a dead giveaway. Anyone can theoretically cover their body entirely and not be reckognized. The disguise skill is for more elaborate things like altered gender etc and not being fully covered while disguised if I'm not mistaken. However making a believable new voice is no small feat. Just a thought.

[GodBeastX]

Alright, disguises, I'm glad someone ask

Before I get into my views on disguises, I want to deal with an issue of memory.

First, people metagame alot in RP games with remembering people. I have to be 100% honest. You see, there was a documentary I watched on the study of criminal activity and what people actually see. What they would do is have someone commit a fake crime, like purse snatching in front of random people. Then interview the person shortly after, SHORTLY after, like 15 minutes. And ask them simple questions.

"What color was his shirt, what race was he" etc etc.

90% of people asked couldn't answer any of the questions correctly. The point of the documentary was to make people more aware of these things to help law enforcement, however, I'm going to apply this to RP world.

Imagine we made people's camera angles sit behind the character's head. Then we cause the population to be more dense. Clothing was more like real world where everyone didn't dress similarly. And some jacks someone right in front of you and makes off.... I garauntee most people wouldn't be able to pick the person out of a crowd.

Think of Intelligence Rolls / Spot Rolls for getting details, memory, etc. I don't want people to start rolling all the time when asked about people. But it's alright to "Forget" some things for gameplay purposes.

Now, disguises. There are, in my mind, two sorts of disguises. Physical, and magical.

Physical is Bluff vs Spot for Sundren with proper materials for the disguise. This is to make you "Appear" different than you are. It is then Bluff vs Listen if you speak. Why Bluff? Most classes that have bluff tend to be classes that would disguise. Bards, Rogues, etc. Not to mention in NWN2 with feats, anyone can max their bluff if they want. So bluff is what we will use.

Now, magical is a bit trickier.

First, stone skin, barkskin, ethereal visage, etc skew colors of a person enough that it makes it more difficult to tell. Only a truely perceptive person could pick out who it is right away. They might use things like voice, or clothing to do so. It's not impossible for an average minded individual, but it takes a bit of effort mentally.

Illusion spells follow rules for illusionary magics. True Seeing will always see through an illusion disguise. Touching the person will likely see through the disguise as well as there will likely be vision versus touch errors, like shape of the person being off, etc. That doesn't mean they will see through the spell, but they will likely notice wierdness with how you look verse how you feel if they got brain capacity for that. Detecting magic will work to tell the detector that Illusion spells are at work, etc.

Transmutation, shaping into something else is a good disguise. Touch clause won't work, However, detecting magic still would work and True Seeing.

Anyone have gripes with this?

Edit: True Seeing on Transmutation

[Glare Bear]

To corroberate the first part of your post I once saw a guy stealing a car. I walked half a block to a payphone to call the police. By the time I got there I couldn't offer more then approximate age height and weight and i did in fact make an effort to take a good look. Also I wasn't far away, I walked right past him. They caught him anyway since the police were there in roughly 30 seconds but that's not the point. I forgot virtually everything in the time it took to walk half a block.

[OzmaDarkheart]

Hate to be a rules lawyer, but...

True seeing does actually pierce transmutation and polymorph effects:

Per 3.5 Player's Handbook:


You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations or creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.(description continues)

[GodBeastX]

oh, then we're fine. True seeing for both. However, touch clause doesn't affect Transmutation.

[Cheatcake]

Your post got me with a few doubts in mind, X

Starting with what you say about Stoneskin and Barkskin. That's how the server views them, changing the appearance? I ask because I'm used to playing with the way D&D works, where those spells have no visible effect and would do nothing with disguises. It might be better, else you're giving those spells an extra advantage they aren't accounted for. Then True Seeing, it's supposed to see through transmutations, saying you see their true form like an overlapping ghosty image over the assumed one or something close to that

This talks about disguises where you want to not let others know you're disguised or want to make a good impersonation. But how does it works when you don't care about that? You wrap cloth around your face and wear a hat shading eyes and forcibly change your tone of voice. It's a crappy attempt but it still means people wouldn't know your face, eyes or voice. How would it work in a case like that?

The last doubt I got is simpler to ask and answer, not so to do: what's the server opinion on adding the lacking skills with a hak? Including disguise, taking lore out and including knowledges, including professions and performances for everyone, the works?

PS: Gah I was beat about True Seeing while I was typing it all...

[Glare Bear]

Dunno about the former. but the latter would typically be sense motive I think since it's used for discerning lies, diguises and magical charming in addition to the benign stuff.

[SteeleButterfly]

Something like this actually came up yesterday. An invisible individual was casting spells not five feet away from another PC, and got miffed because some of the other PCs claimed they heard him. I don't see how they could have -failed- to hear him. Unless he has Silent Spell and was using it, spellcasting is not quiet. That's the point of Silent Spell -- not having to speak the words.

I can see using a Spot check to see the possible distortion in the air from the invisible person, not to mention footprints on the path. But requiring a Listen check to hear him? I wouldn't think so. That's what Move Silently is for.

And being able to pick out a person's voice when the person is disguised varies widely from person to person. My husband cannot remember people he's met on a regular basis and constantly asks me, "Do I know him?" "Yes, dear, you met him just three hours ago." I, on the other hand, am able to recognise voices and mannerisms of someone I met once, months ago. These are both rather extremes, but they do exist. Perhaps the server policy should find some middle ground that doesn't make it near-impossible to see (or hear) through a disguise, but doesn't make it absurdly simple, either.

[GodBeastX]

Your post got me with a few doubts in mind, X

Starting with what you say about Stoneskin and Barkskin. That's how the server views them, changing the appearance? I ask because I'm used to playing with the way D&D works, where those spells have no visible effect and would do nothing with disguises. It might be better, else you're giving those spells an extra advantage they aren't accounted for. Then True Seeing, it's supposed to see through transmutations, saying you see their true form like an overlapping ghosty image over the assumed one or something close to that

This talks about disguises where you want to not let others know you're disguised or want to make a good impersonation. But how does it works when you don't care about that? You wrap cloth around your face and wear a hat shading eyes and forcibly change your tone of voice. It's a crappy attempt but it still means people wouldn't know your face, eyes or voice. How would it work in a case like that?

The last doubt I got is simpler to ask and answer, not so to do: what's the server opinion on adding the lacking skills with a hak? Including disguise, taking lore out and including knowledges, including professions and performances for everyone, the works?

PS: Gah I was beat about True Seeing while I was typing it all...

Other than the icon that appears over your head, it's what you see is what you get. I was pretty sure stoneskin and barkskin had a visual effect in NWN2, am I mistaken? The idea is, if I carve a statue of someone, and place it in view, unless the person is standing next to it to verify the likeness, some people have trouble knowing who statues depict. That's what I was saying. Alot of people in NWN2 havn't played Pen & Paper to know what is visual and what isn't, so we just go "If you see it, it's there" except the icons over heads. This is eye of the beholder deal. Same with something like a hood in a dark room, faces are shaded, but indiscernable? Eye of the beholder.

To me disguise is meant to appear to be someone else, not hide who you are. Obviously putting a paper back over your head makes you indiscernable without a Bluff roll, but if you want to be Jonathan Blakes, and pretend to be Remy Keystone as an alter ego and hide your true self, we're going to need a bluff. And obviously if someone has never seen your real self, they'll have nothing to compare you to.

Plans to add skills? Depends.

[GodBeastX]

Something like this actually came up yesterday. An invisible individual was casting spells not five feet away from another PC, and got miffed because some of the other PCs claimed they heard him. I don't see how they could have -failed- to hear him. Unless he has Silent Spell and was using it, spellcasting is not quiet. That's the point of Silent Spell -- not having to speak the words.

I can see using a Spot check to see the possible distortion in the air from the invisible person, not to mention footprints on the path. But requiring a Listen check to hear him? I wouldn't think so. That's what Move Silently is for.

And being able to pick out a person's voice when the person is disguised varies widely from person to person. My husband cannot remember people he's met on a regular basis and constantly asks me, "Do I know him?" "Yes, dear, you met him just three hours ago." I, on the other hand, am able to recognise voices and mannerisms of someone I met once, months ago. These are both rather extremes, but they do exist. Perhaps the server policy should find some middle ground that doesn't make it near-impossible to see (or hear) through a disguise, but doesn't make it absurdly simple, either.

Spell casting is forceful. Nobody is allowed to "Mutter a few words" so nobody knows what your doing. Invoking the arcane is often a complex and delicate process. Think army of darkness when he was removing the curse from the book before he took it and tried to cough out the rest. If you don't say it firmly it doesn't happen. Invisible people still are "Heard". Now, silent spell allows you to cast without verbal components, but that is just the silence of the spell, not your body. You still breathe, cough, sneeze, step on twigs, or whatever else people hear you do, even with silent spell.

[GodBeastX]

And a final point I want to make, we're playing with each other, not against each other. Try not to turn RP experiences into a "I gotta win! I HAVE TO WIN!"

Evil doesn't have to get caught just because he's evil. Good doesn't have to die, just because it confronted you. It's more enjoyable if you look at it as a friendly game where people are just on different teams instead of a "They're my enemies because they're my characters."

Eventually players will become more in confrontation I imagine. I don't want OOC bitterness to come from it. I happen to be on Cyrics side while you're on Torm doesn't mean we can't RP civil

[Cheatcake]

Other than the icon that appears over your head, it's what you see is what you get. I was pretty sure stoneskin and barkskin had a visual effect in NWN2, am I mistaken? The idea is, if I carve a statue of someone, and place it in view, unless the person is standing next to it to verify the likeness, some people have trouble knowing who statues depict. That's what I was saying. Alot of people in NWN2 havn't played Pen & Paper to know what is visual and what isn't, so we just go "If you see it, it's there" except the icons over heads. This is eye of the beholder deal. Same with something like a hood in a dark room, faces are shaded, but indiscernable? Eye of the beholder.

To me disguise is meant to appear to be someone else, not hide who you are. Obviously putting a paper back over your head makes you indiscernable without a Bluff roll, but if you want to be Jonathan Blakes, and pretend to be Remy Keystone as an alter ego and hide your true self, we're going to need a bluff. And obviously if someone has never seen your real self, they'll have nothing to compare you to.

Plans to add skills? Depends.

Those spells have a visual effect on NWN2, yup, I meant D&D which I use as basis most of the time. You can count on the fingers of a hand how many spells that have a visual effect on NWN2 are really supposed to have them on D&D. It's easy to explain, the game is meant to be flashy, if 90% of the spells didn't create annoying globes of light around you most people would complain this or that game has "much more impressive spells" So, we do assume all those spells that were supposed to be subtle and undetectable until it was too late have visible effects? There are haks and overrides out there to remove the "wrong" visible effects, both to make it more faithful to the original intent as well as to lower the weight on people's CPUs

Yup, I meant cases where you just don't want people to know who you are, not to look like someone else. Often you just don't want witnesses to be able to point fingers at you, not necessarily make it look like the captain of the guard did the crime

Depends... on what?

[ipsissimus]

"A treant?s leaves are deep green in the spring and summer. In the fall and winter the leaves change to yellow, orange, or red, but they rarely fall out. A treant?s legs fit together when closed to look like the trunk of a tree, and a motionless treant is nearly indistinguishable from a tree." - SRD D20

When a Treant is standing motionless (granted no one can turn off the standing still swaying affect of any character) how does a common Sundren spearman discern a tree from a treant standing next to another tree..in bushes, at the crossroads?

"hey you're not a tree!" and then proceeds to attack the treant with his spear who never took a swing at the spearman.

That scarey dark armored scythe wielding guy maybe, Dion probably too, but...a Sundren spearman scout?

Just curious.

[Kaldaris]

Holy crap Batman, old thread is old.

That being said, let's cover some basic points first,

1) You are indistinguishable from a normal tree, yes.
2) Most Sundren Militia are normal folks, yes.
3) DM's can override anything they want, yes.
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Conclusion;

The Dungeon Master did not want you there.