What spells can detect people hiding in open spaces?

[nickbeat]

Not a big deal, just requires a bunch of +spot items to beat all the +hide items.

[me_less]

Nickbeat, I agree. Not 100% sure on this one but i think there's not enough spot/listen items to counter the sneak items though. The shadow dancer rogues/assassins can become nigh unbeatable if it stays that way. (That 6-second re-use timer is too quick)

Perhaps increase Clairaudience/Clairvoyance duration? It's the only spell that I can see that helps counter the insane move sneak/hide skill bonuses we're seeing but at 6sec/lvl it's almost useless. Or a a lower-level spell that increases spot/listen? Anyway, a few thoughts to suggest given the thread question.

[sharringtonm]

http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.ph...Cleric_Level_5
Zone of Revelation.
Reveals rouges unless they have a high Spell Resistance. It doesn't care what their Hide/Move Silently is.

Perhaps increase Clairaudience/Clairvoyance duration?

I heard tell they did that recently, putting it back to PNP. I could be wrong. Maybe it just hasn't been put in yet.

http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.ph...Wizard_Level_1
Alarm.
A must have. Even if you can't see/spot them, you know they are there. Good Duration too.


The way I see it, only caster that gets no love in this area is the druid, but then a druid with owl's insight and spot/listen as class skills, has no problems seeing stealthers.

This is all IMHO.

[me_less]

Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Hmmm... I'm not sure if I tried the duration yet since the update. I'll try it out and post if they increased the duration.

Re: Alarm
Good point about the spell. It's great if you want to make sure you're having a private conversation. I've never really considered the spell before. Too bad it's no use in battle.

Re: Zone of Revelation
Interesting. So it's not just vs invisible/ethereal huh? nice.

Re: Druids + owl's insight + class skill
True. the duration is pretty awesome and they can get quite high. Unsure if it'll still beat the +30 and over sneak monsters that exist --- let me see.... (((calculating a lvl 12 character: around a +23 without items.))) yeah, druids can be pretty difficult to sneak past if they focus on listen or spot. just need a few more spot/listen items...

[Ebannon]

Re: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Re: Druids + owl's insight + class skill
True. the duration is pretty awesome and they can get quite high. Unsure if it'll still beat the +30 and over sneak monsters that exist --- let me see.... (((calculating a lvl 12 character: around a +23 without items.))) yeah, druids can be pretty difficult to sneak past if they focus on listen or spot. just need a few more spot/listen items...

Druids can turn into animals, invoke the elements, and weild the powers of nature.
Fighters can stand toe-to-toe with creatures and trade blows, and get an insane amount of feats.
Mages can turn you to stone, blow you up, and render themselves completely immune to damage and detection.
Clerics are uber as all hell.


A rogue can hide... and thats about it. You take that away and the class is basically about as useful as a mage in an anti-magic zone. I have a problem with a thread dedicated to bypassing the one and only skill that makes rogues a viable class.

Unless of course we're going to include items which completely strip casters of their spells, or render fighters unable to attack things.

[sharringtonm]

A rogue can hide... and thats about it. You take that away and the class is basically about as useful as a mage in an anti-magic zone. I have a problem with a thread dedicated to bypassing the one and only skill that makes rogues a viable class.

I'd have to disagree with you.

Here's the facts I lay out for your viewing:

Last night my 20Str Fighter build, Zek, took on Veront a rogue build in straight up combat with NO hiding at all.

He wupped my ass black and blue. I did a grand total of 18 damage to him in the time it took him to do 90 to me.

Level difference? I'm Level 6, He's level 9. I even disarmed him and he proceeded to knock me out WITH HIS BARE FISTS!

Please don't tell me all rogues have are hide, cause thats just plain untrue. My evidence shows that.

He didn't even have to use Feint or HIPS on me (though I'm sure he was just taking it easy on me by not using them.)

ANd this is funny coming from you logan, I seem to remember just recently you KILLED Saulus's level 24 Ranger without using hiding? Hmm? Traps are pretty nifty huh?

[me_less]

Ebannon,
Totally understand your point. No intent to make rogues/shadowdancers totally useless, but one has to be fully prepared to be able to counter the uber sneak skills. (esp vs shadowdancers... you can't pull off a spell or hit one fast enough because of that darned 6 sec re-use timer. if there's no counter, perhaps it's too powerful?)
If you think about it, one has to practically build a character vs shadowdancers (I pick on them because pure rogues can only sneak attack once and then they're vulnerable) and not everyone will do that. And spells have to be prepared for and have a limited duration. Druids may be the uber-sneakers downfall, but everyone needs to have a weakness, no? (e.g. mages caught by surprise, fighters vs a prepped spell caster, etc.)
Anyway, just because a few characters can counter a rogues' uber sneak skills doesn't mean they become obsolete. According to math-crunching, if you don't have spot or listen as a class skill, you won't see an uber sneaker. That makes them pretty darn formidable still.

[Ebannon]

I'd have to disagree with you.

Here's the facts I lay out for your viewing:

Last night my 20Str Fighter build, Zek, took on Veront a rogue build in straight up combat with NO hiding at all.

I can't speak to your CvC, but that seems really odd unless Veront has some ridiculous AC. Logan couldn't even fight the creatures in the viridale by himself until one level ago. That would be a level 12 character getting his ass handed to him by creatures that a level 4-5 fighter tears through solo like a chainsaw.

If a rogue can't hide he's basically a fighter with crappy attack and low hitpoints. If anyone thinks rogues are super strong I suggest they try playing one. Anyway I apologise for turning this into a CvC debate.

[Elusa]

Each class has their place. That's how D&D was designed, so that no class was the 'best' class or the 'worst' class. Rogues are meant to use surprise, catch their opponents unprepared. They're supposed to use traps, poisons, ambushes. Yes, there are ways to negate or overcome sneaking. There's also ways to negate spellcasting, or weaken fighters to the point of making them pathetic. Suggesting some doesn't make the class useless. Rogues have plenty of other uses outside of combat as well. Disabling traps, opening locks, working as the party's negotiator. They get a ton of skill points for whatever purpose they see fit, and now they have some new toys with the last update.

Now if you really want to make a rogue effective, don't go alone. Rogues get sneak attacks as long as they're flanking.

[nickbeat]

No character should feel like they are invulnerable, or infindable. It makes it so much more interesting to play in a world where anything could happen. It will keep you on your toes knowing that some high spot druid or a cleric with Zone of Truth can foil your strategy.

[Jai_V]

Taking away the sneakiness doesn't make a Rogue useless, but it gimps them. But everything in D&D is, with proper preparation, fallible.

On the upshot, Ebannon, most of these people are already set in a character mold, and if they haven't built their character to surmount a Rogue, thusfar, they're going to be hard-pressed to do so, even with all these buffs.

Also, whenever Caz is going up against someone he thinks can fling magic around, he brings a simple scroll of Dispell with him. Now if you took away a Rogue's hide, m.s., AND u.m.d, then they'd be fairly useless, in CvC combat. ^_^

[--chupacabra--]

My experiences of playing a sneaker on a server where most everyone had true sight and/or high spot tended to be frustrating. On that server, there was almost no way to beat an opposed spot/listen check. Ergo: it was extremely difficult for anyone to spy, pickpocket, sneak attack, or whatever with another PC.

Unless it works differently than I am thinking it does, True Sight supercedes any amount of hide or move silently. It is an available spell for almost all casting classes. The ability to cast True Sight once per day from an item, as far as I know, is present already possible in the game.

The spot skill seems to cover a myriad of gray-areas as well, while hide and move silently are -two- skills which do exactly what they say on the tin.

As it stands, if there were there many stacking spot/listen items available, and considering level restrictions, sneaking could become relatively obsolete. Disguise will become the primary way to gain information covertly.

There are several feats to raise hide and move silently. The balance must be there: item vs. feat, where the feat comes one time in a character's existence, and at the cost of something else, versus an object which can be bought from a shop by anyone.

Don't get me wrong. Disguises provide for other opportunities; both for good and bad RP. Just like stealth.

I think the true bottom line is: stealthy characters need to take the environment into account and be some bit realistic about hiding. Other people (even if you -do- see the person obviously sneaking around) might be best served letting some RP develop when possible instead of simply stating "*looks at the hiding person* hello there!' every time you see a stealthed character.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I tend to think that If a person has no reason to be looking for someone hiding in a bush, they have no reason to spot them there either. The old stand by about paranoia or heightened awareness are all good, but these are states of mind that would come with their own set of trade offs in an rp sense, as well.


Of course, there is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4ZnGprplKU , which could be a useful guide for both sides of this debate.

[nickbeat]

Awesome post Chupa!

My new character will be called B. J. Smegma!

[Urithrand]

*resists the urge to reveal what smegma is*

[Ebannon]

*resists the urge to reveal what smegma is*

Growing up on a farm and in a farming community I know what this is, and I wish to hell I didn't.