PCs without fear

[Machiavelli]

Backing down!

Alot of people are good about this, but sometimes people just don't seem to know when a problem can't be solved through direct confrontation. I give plenty of hints about this sort of thing, and most of the time (I think) I make it's pretty obvious when trying to win by fighting isn't going to work. Consider a tactical retreat on occasion (even if your character is intended to be the uber-badass "I never back down" sort, then a 'tactical-retreat' sounds better than fleeing ). Retreat, regroup, come up with a plan, try to figure out how to come out on top (sometimes not even coming out on top will be possible, but often it is). There may be more to what's happening than a fight, and it could be you're missing out on what's actually interesting about the event.

Now, a quick warning; I've been too lenient on people, so partially this is my fault. As some of you will know, I'm not fond of killing players, I happen to think that's not really the point of DMing (most of the time anyway), and not really a great deal of fun for anybody. I have a tendency to bring people back after the dust settles with a couple of hitpoints and classify them as 'wounded'. In future, if people are continuously disregarding how dangerous a situation is and forging ahead like they're demi-gods despite having been beaten to a bloody pulp 2 minutes before, then I'm going to be reluctant to do this.

Just a thought here people; those of you who want to fight everything might actually be missing our on the fun stuff! I'm not saying that people should back down from every fight; I'm just saying that if it's crystal clear that it can't be won, and people proceed anyway, then I won't be so nice as I have been.

[Lollercide]

It's almost as if you would suggest that I would rush into five orcs to get beaten.

More seriously, I fully agree with this thought and personally wouldn't mind taking a death penalty for doing something reckless such as fighting an undefeatable for for 30minutes or so.. Or bumrushing orcs and getting my pooper pushed in. It would only suck if it were by stroke of godly unluck that I got killed instead of my own stupid behavior causing my death.

[joker]

This is why, Calowyn, ran from Landaren a couple of weeks ago. Calowyn saw Landaren cut down 6 or 7 other players. So being the survivalist that he is, he retreated.

[MrDeadman]

I usually see the opposite happening. I swear that if the DM's threw a Gelatinous Cube in as a plot device 80% of players would be like, "Hey, lets try to talk to it."

[Dark presence]

Its common knowledge among PCs that gelatinous cubes can be tricked into becoming jello cubes with a decent diplomacy roll.

And I sort of agree. The thing is there is no real way to know what a PC can and can't handle when DMs start throwing monsters at you. There is also that somewhat implicit understanding that what you see a DM throw at you is something for you to defeat, something you can actually defeat, even if it is difficult or requires some trick. PCs are supposed to overcome obstacles. They are the protagonists. Setbacks happen to NPCs, and the PCs come in to clean up. Of course that mindset ought to disappear for a PW, but still that is reinforced time and again with CRPGs and usually previous DM experiences.

I can't say I know how you handle these situations, but I'd suggest little scene descriptors to help, like "Roll int...DC 1...You look over the horde of orcs, do several complicated calculations in your head, and soil your pants, realizing you are going to die if you do not run right now"

[Jaeram]

I've seen this as well, and there are probably a few fights I should have run from. My real beef is the whole 'using the engine' for pvp instead of RP lol. The last two times I came up against Landaren (and I'm not blaming anybody for what happened, it was mostly the situation) Orrick got womped due to the engine. He doesn't actually like to fight people so he's been trying to do a troll form + roll strength check and attempt to drag player x/restrain player x/knockdown player x, because...well.. trolls are strong and it can be handled fairly non violently lol. The first time I was typing and gonna use a rp pvp thing when someone else attacked the minion and I was like well... I'm not gonna restrain him while this guy is throwing his axe or whatever about. The second time I think you were running an event Mach, and after landeran killed one of the 'good guys' (he kinda had his side turned to me) I was typing to do a rp action again, and as soon as I finished and said it, 'womp womp womp' FEN, lol. Personally I'd just like to see more people use rp for pvp instead of the engine, thats all, I think it makes the pvp more interactive, creative, and realistic, than just the 'I'm x levels higher than you, you've got no chance' engine option. Just my two cents. Although I think you're right about the whole, learn when to run away thing.

Edit : Put the gelatinous cube in the microwave it will turn in to soup.

[sharringtonm]

There is also that somewhat implicit understanding that what you see a DM throw at you is something for you to defeat, something you can actually defeat, even if it is difficult or requires some trick.

Your joking right? What server do you play on? *IS LAUGHING HYSTERICLY* Wait till Mako sees this!

[Machiavelli]

The thing is there is no real way to know what a PC can and can't handle when DMs start throwing monsters at you. There is also that somewhat implicit understanding that what you see a DM throw at you is something for you to defeat, something you can actually defeat, even if it is difficult or requires some trick

I know what you're saying, I was speaking about circumstances where it's been made very clear to people that they can't come out on top of the situation in a fight. As to your further comments, I use descriptors and so forth to indicate this (I know you haven't actually been in any of my events, but I really do!). Most of my plots aren't really about 'beating a horde of mosters'; winning, coming out on top, or simply surviving and maybe learning a thing or two usually requires that people use their brains and not just their sword-arms.

[Maevan2]

One thing i use is an ecounter that is very, very tough. Not deadly, but tough enough so the players can already see their end coming. And then comes an similar encounter, but it is obvious that this one definitely deadly. An additional hint can be to posses one of the enemies and say something about reinforcements ariving soon or something like that. Of course people need a chance to see this encounter from a distance so they can think before they act. But if people know you they usually understand this hint. At least this works for me. But it still depends on the players.

But i still remember an event when i spawned a few gnolls in an area where they never have been before. First just an scount, then came a small camp with a fireplace and more gnolls and finallya huge camp. The players were to weak to fight a bigger group of gnolls and they were old players that knew this fact. But anyway:

Look, a gnoll scout. What is he doing here....lets kill it
Ohh, look a gnoll camp...lets kill them
Wow, look at that huge gnoll camp. I wonder what they are up to. ....lets rush that place
Ohhh...more gnolls....gnolls everywhere....what the helll....run....

You can guess how the result looked like. Some people just don't accept hints.

[Machiavelli]

Right with ya Maevan, and that's exactly the sort of thing I do. The op at the start of this thread was intended as a warning to players who don't take notice of just that sort of buildup

[Kaeldorn]

I'm one of those guilty of this, I fear, though always for good reason... Last night with the whole orc raid thing, Yashia made it very clear that she did not want the orcs to cross the bridge and endanger the path towards the druids' glade in the Viridale forest, no matter the cost. When the majority of the group (all bar one) blatantly ignored not only my but also your warnings of them probably coming our way soon and just had to go beat up the invulnerable trolls first, I decided I had to hold the line by myself so I could buy the others some time. I believe it was because you first said 'you hear sounds in the northwest' that they just assumed the trolls were coming first and the orcs would wait for their turn. That's not your fault, but theirs for believing the DM will just play it out so it's easiest for us.

As for escaping... my character, if capable, tends to be one of the last who falls back in order to hold the flanks and ensure everyone makes it to safety, unless it seems hopeless and I'd surely die without being able to accomplish anything anyway.
I think the 'organized bandits' in the mountains north of Aquor a few nights back were a good example of this. Although they were simply too strong for our party to handle at all and we couldn't even retreat safely because a huge group behind us had respawned and Occulus didn't have any invisibility spells left, I found the roleplay to work out really well in such tension (possibly thanks to the awesome people we had with us ).

[cmosier]

This does seem to be the " hero" mentality. I play an elven rogue, and I have had my bad nights, but I have learned form those and developed a great stradegy, I call it Hide and Live.

I put a lot of points into Hide and Move Silently and I damn well plan on using them. I get a little bothered when I'm in a group and all the warrior go running into battle. I try to place my character behind or beside enemies to use his sneak attack to his fullest.

I read a quote the other day, and I believe my character used it in game.

"Retreat is not surrender. You only surrender when you give up."
- No clue who said it.

[Kaeldorn]

Sehron said that I think. And I agree completely. Then again, making a stand is sometimes for the better if it accomplishes a particular goal. For instance, buying time...

[Mighty_Draco]

Poor Irame, everyone was being mean to him for trying to buy people time

[Kaeldorn]

The thing is, everyone was practially out already, and you were still running around like mad shooting at the trolls. Feeling that we couldn't leave without you, yes, we got a bit angered at you because you actually endangered us by not retreating together with us.