Negative Energy

[Chiangtao]

My understanding of DnD is that evil / negative energy spells, enchantments, and affects can have an affect on PC alignment, shifting their psyche to be more evil slowly over time. Think Frodo and the one ring: he didn't turn evil fully, but you could see him become less trustful and more selfish as time passed. Who knows what would have happened if he had kept the ring longer.

I raise this issue because I've seen some PCs walking around brazenly with weapons enchanted with negative energy. Do the PCs take this into account with how they develop their characters? Probably. But think about how intelligent guards / citizens / adventurers perceive you: is it fair to just walk through a city and assume that no one will react simply because a DM is not online?

Additionally, I've seen some good-aligned characters cast necromatic spells, such as False Life. Heck, I've seen someone do this in the druid grove right next to the elder druid there! I hope spellcasters consider spells before they memorize them and don't just use them because they are useful and powerful.

DMs, do you ever take this into account when you witness these things? How do guards react to seeing evil weapons? What about mages hearing evil incantations?

Just some food for thought folks. This isn't an attack on anyone, so if we could keep it to a generalized discourse and not start the PC-specific replies, it would be highly appreciated!

[nickbeat]

I know the DMs take this into consideration. I had a good cleric cast Greater Ruin, and the DM moved his alignment over toward evil a nudge. Stupid spell anyway!

I don't think all necromancy should be considered evil, like false life is just a way for a wizard to protect himself. It doesn't hurt anyone. There was another thread discussing this actually. Anyone recall where that was?

[Chiangtao]

I think you guys are missing some of the point

I think that's a good way to ICly defend using False Life. But, it IS necromancy, and does carry a price per the DnD rules. There are plenty of folks who use the "ends to justify the means," and that's great RP. But mechanically speaking, wielding evil weapons and using necromancy exerts power over you and corrupts you. Again, think Frodo. I'm not sure everyone takes this into account.

And yes, some guards in rinky dink towns might ignore evil weapons being wielded. But to walk around brazenly with one in major towns is ignoring NPCs: a big no-no.

[nickbeat]

Yes, I agree it has a price but what would constitute evilness? What if you are a wizened old wizard who requires false life to keep alive after the horrible curse was placed upon him. He is lawful good and vows to seek out that evil and someday cure the curse but you must fight fire with fire.

Maybe the Dms just need to see a real RP reason for it.

Tragically our hero ultimately becomes death incarnate, corrupted by the very power he sought to destroy!

[undeadsteak]

I'm pretty sure druids have access to necromantic spells as well, though I'm not 100% sure. There are descriptors on Necromancy spells, such as Evil, and thats when you know that someone would probably be negatively influenced when you cast something like that, such as raise undead.

As for evil weapons, meh. You'd be a stupid guard to mess with someone with a big glowing axe of uber evil. :P.

That being said, using an evil weapon for the right cause doesn't really make you evil. You're putting something meant for evil into good use.

[Leaving Hope]

Additionally, I've seen some good-aligned characters cast necromatic spells, such as False Life.

DMs, do you ever take this into account when you witness these things?

I personally modify alignments when I see a good PC casting an evil spell. The first time is usually only a point. However, good clerics casting evil prayers repeatedly will lose favor if I catch them. Do it enough, and you'll lose the ability to cast.

There are also a few PCs that have negative energy weapons whose alignments are being modified. I can honestly say that all three of them that I'm thinking of have role played their dark slide well. I won't name them, but they're hard to miss with their big black weapons and all.

However, as I'm sure you know, it's impossible to DM all areas at all times. Best thing I can recommend is that the players encourage each other and discuss the issue, as I think you've done above.

[Dark presence]

Negative energy isn't evil though, going by the book (Nor is the respective plane). And as a whole, neither is the school of necromancy. Its also not the antithesis of druidic beliefs (Look at the necromancy spells druids get). I think the common problem with all this is that its far too associated with undeath as opposed to just death. That and 3rd edition totally split healing spells away from the necromancy school, which is utterly stupid.


In the DND cosmos, negative energy is one of the building blocks of the multiverse. And being a fundemental energy to that existence, it exists outside of alignment, like the other inner planes and the respective energies. If you think of it more like a raw natural force, like gravity, its more understandable. Gravity is necessary to life on Earth, without it we would be screwed. But too much of it is also a dangerous thing, like Jupiter or black holes.

Too much positive energy is also a bad thing. I would imagine excessive use of positive energy should lead to cancerous tumors and other serious problems from the imbalance.

But back on the topic, actual effects from evil and/or negative energy spells is up to the DMs, naturally. Although I do have personal preferences on what I do with my characters in relation to those things.

Personally when I play an arcane necromancer, I like the cliche that they seem to be aging faster than normal, and have whitened hair and various other features because of all the negative energy they harness. For clerics, I don't play up any effect, considering they can harness that power directly from their gods, spontaneously. Druids probably can't use negative energy to such a degree that they would have any effects, because it probably means they are killing way too much.

For alignment spells though, thats a whole different horse in my opinion. Alignment as I see it should have no discernable effect on a person who isn't in the outer planes. If they do cast alignment spells at a high rate, they probably should shift towards evil, or chaos or whatever it is. And its up to a DM as to what else happens. But the way I see alignment, it should not change their personality any more than normal.

I think the rule is that clerics and druids are not even allowed to cast spells of the opposing alignment (which should always go off of the god, not the cleric, in my opinion), so they can't possibly shift because they can't even memorize it. Of course there are some very major and ridiculous oversights here, namely in that certain abjuration spells have alignment modifiers. It makes more sense for certain campaigns or styles of play, but it should just be ignored completely, in my opinion, for those particular spells, and especially so for Sundren.

[Jaeram]

I have to agree with Dark. Orrick is a neutral good wizard, and while I do not think he has ever casted a necromantic spell, I know he knows some. I don't think using the shadow weave or negative energy should affect your alignment because it's just a medium like anything else, that would be like classifying fire, lightning, air, water, earth, as either good or evil. I think what would determine any alignment shift would be the manner in which the spell is used, not necessarily the energy itself, because I don't think that negative energy has ever been denoted as evil. Connotated evil, yes, but connotation is just a perception of it, like an opinion.

[Peridan]

Well the shadow weave is a bit different from negative energy. The anti-weave has been known to corrupt things from time to time (i.e. the OC)

[sharringtonm]

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthr...highlight=laws

Per the laws of Sundren, Necromatic Animation is illegal.
Necromancy, and the use of negative energy in other pursuits is not. By that ruling, negative energy weapons and/or evil weapons and spells are not illegal unless they fall under the rule of Necromantic Animation as well.

As for the corrupting influence of spells with the indicator [Evil], the DMs on the server can tell you there is a system already in place for that.

As for the corrupting effect of Negative Energy spells, as of this time, it does not corrupt people unless either the player wishes it, or a DM orders it. You cannot force corruption on a nother player because of their use of negative energy or necromancy.

*Important to note, that the bearing of arms (wielding a sword) is illegal in public domains such as the city and towns that dot the landscape. The law breakers are guilty of a crime, but it is not a crime of evil/good or necromancy, but one of brandishing weapons.

[HurricaneMasta]

Just wanted to put my two cents in on this because something struck me as interesting. Both examples given above, by Nickbeat and Undeadsteak, seem to me to actually illustrate the point being made, rather than refute it. They both give examples of characters that are ends-over-means. Characters that are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their spoken goal. Granted, their goals may be "good" as such, and they won't be twirling moustaches or tying innocent Nell to the train tracks, but someone willing to overlook the ethical and moral implications of using an "evil" tool certainly isn't Dudley Dooright. Just thought it was interesting is all.

[Gairun]

Negative energy isn't evil though, going by the book (Nor is the respective plane). And as a whole, neither is the school of necromancy. Its also not the antithesis of druidic beliefs (Look at the necromancy spells druids get). I think the common problem with all this is that its far too associated with undeath as opposed to just death. That and 3rd edition totally split healing spells away from the necromancy school, which is utterly stupid.


In the DND cosmos, negative energy is one of the building blocks of the multiverse. And being a fundemental energy to that existence, it exists outside of alignment, like the other inner planes and the respective energies. If you think of it more like a raw natural force, like gravity, its more understandable. Gravity is necessary to life on Earth, without it we would be screwed. But too much of it is also a dangerous thing, like Jupiter or black holes.

Try explaining that to the underpaid town guard, or Farmer Jed. You can't expect normal people to understand spell descriptors, thats just Meta-gaming. Evil in DnD is usually very black and white. You may act like some brilliant planes travelling wizard who uses all this negative energy as you put it for good, but in the eyes of the population of Sundren they whisper about you in fear and make their children go inside if they see you coming.

[Sammael]

Greater Ruin

:S I thought that was an Epic Spell. It was in NWN1 (it was the one with the animation that made it look like an orbital bombardment).

[Kangleton]

Realistically, wouldn't some kind of Will Save be justified if you were going to shift alignment based on "corruption" or "exposure to excessive negativity"? I would think so.

[undeadsteak]

Just wanted to put my two cents in on this because something struck me as interesting. Both examples given above, by Nickbeat and Undeadsteak, seem to me to actually illustrate the point being made, rather than refute it. They both give examples of characters that are ends-over-means. Characters that are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their spoken goal. Granted, their goals may be "good" as such, and they won't be twirling moustaches or tying innocent Nell to the train tracks, but someone willing to overlook the ethical and moral implications of using an "evil" tool certainly isn't Dudley Dooright. Just thought it was interesting is all.

Yes, but that does not make them evil incarnate either.