Finalized Death Rules

[Aries1918]

Is this in effect right now? If it is, its not working

[Saulus]

No, it isn't. Don't jump the gun, I've been working on the adjustments for awhile, it's just something that's coming soon.

[Dark presence]

I'd think it still needs some tweaking.
Firstly, I think considering the massive XP loss and the inability to consent to a raise or even know where you're being raised, raise dead needs to give a sanctuary effect to someone who just got brought back, just like the login effect, resurrection too for that matter.

Secondly, its been said but I have to add to it, raise dead is such an unattractive option, as to be utterly useless. I see no reason why the temple should offer any different XP costs than an adventurer cleric. Its reasonable for it to be higher gold costs (why is it cheapest anyways?), but XP costs should never be lower, because it makes the level 9-12 cleric useless for that particular purpose. The "convenience" of having a PC cleric right there to raise you is not something anyone should be penalized for. Not the dead person, and certainly not the cleric who is an actual PC, not some hired henchman or a potion or scroll you are lucky to find.

Considering the temple costs, I say make raise dead free to cast, with no worse XP penalty than the temple.

Currently, with the lack of people playing, there seem to be a very tiny handful of clerics that can actually cast Resurrection, and these rules would make temple raises the only way to go.

I still also like the idea mentioned in another thread of a 'free' raise if someone is raised in under a certain amount of time. The kind of time that a cleric would have had to memorize that spell instead of a combat spell when they went into the dungeon, because they can't beat the timer by going out to rest, especially not after finishing fighting whatever they are fighting.

[Jaeram]

I think if you added a 'free rez' option like you mentioned would kind of throw a wrench in the plans for the death system. It would mean getting raised would be a lot cheaper. I think Saulus has a good idea here, if anything I think it could be a bit harsher, like costing more diamonds. Also having a cleric there to rez you if you go down while fighting, IMO, isn't really what I consider them being there for, so having it cost me to raise on the spot seems reasonable to me. Clerics have other roles than rez bot, I would much rather have a cleric acting as a dedicated healer and keeping me alive so that I don't die in the first place than having him there to rez me. But besides that, I think Saulus has a good idea here, although I was just getting used to the current system I won't complain about it, I would rather have it be kinda easy than too hard so..

Keep up the good work Saulus.

[CharacterInWhite]

Looks good, Saulus. Oh, sorry for clunking up the Bugs forum - skimmed over the vault thread because it didn't occur to me what that thread might've contained.

[Belwas]

nice death system compromise, though I liked it a bit harsher.

[Ithildin]

I like this system a lot better then the other way.. can actually afford a temple raise now.
The other way was a bit too harsh for people who don't get that much time to play.

[moondiggidy]

Will current characters receive signus' or will that only happen if you start a new character?

[Saulus]

Using a signus will allow you to be raised avoiding the above penalties. All players will start with three regardless of level.

No worries there.

[Tassafina]

I think these death rules are much better, of course your never going to please everyone thats just not possible. Their are just too many ooc facters to make super harsh death penalties much fun in my oppinion.

Making the Temple better than raise dead is good for me...I usually don't feel like fighting right after I died. It just doesnt feel right to me..death should take a lot out of a person both physically and mentally. But if my companions raise me I almost feel obligated to keep with the group and continue on.

[ThePaganKing]

If you are worried about having clerics that raise or resurrect being ineffective with the coming soon current system, then maybe we could have it that if you are resurrected or raised in the field, then you lose no xp or gold, but you lose a constitution point permanently.

Look at it this way. If you are wounded in RL in a combat situation and you have a combat medic helping you, you will not respond or heal as quickly as if you were in the rear getting the specific treatment, surgeries, and drugs you really need.

Now, you are in the field (Sundren), you are in combat or just finished combat and you are dead. Everyone is exhausted and you are asking a cleric to raise or resurrect you. He doesn't have a temple or other priests to help with the power it takes to perform this intense and should be physically exhausting rite nor is he in a temple where the God's power would be greater than out in the field. So, he raises or rezes you, but because he had to rely on his own power and he is probably tired anyway, you come back, but he had to use a bit of your soul or power to help with the spell...........thus, a permanently lower constitution hit.

I say the xp loss should be more when getting raised or rezed in a field situation, because it would be much harder, IMO. We act like these are everyday things, but actually, in AD&D, having that kind of power is Godlike and doesn't happen just anytime or everyday. It is very powerful magic to bring someone back from the dead and should take immense power to be able to cast it...........power that has to come completely from the cleric in the field, without aid from other clerics, rest, a peaceful setting, or the power of a temple.

Just my thoughts, go ahead and take a whack at me

[Aries1918]

Permanent constitution hit? I would understand if it was a constitution hit that lasted a certain amount of time; say a day to a week perhaps. But permanent?

[Jaeram]

I agree 100%, anyways, I thought in D&D there were more adverse effects to rez (I wasn't too familiar with the cleric class but..), I thought the cleric either had to prepare for such a spell ahead of time with rituals or something, or maybe it was when the cleric casts resurrection he becomes exhausted for a period of time (lowered stats, can't cast resurrection, etc.) for a period of a day(s)? Since NWN doesn't do that you'de have to pick up the slack somewhere right? I could be wrong about the above, but I think that's what I remember.

Edit: I was agreeing with ThePaganKing about getting rezzed in the field and how it should be harder to do in the field.

[Dark presence]

As interesting as the idea of a "field medic" scenario is to explain the inferiority of the casting cleric, there is nothing in the rules to support it. It would be a house rule. Raise Dead takes 1 minute to cast, and requires 5000 gold worth of diamonds. Thats it, nothing about needing a temple or anything else, nothing about fatiguing the cleric either. Anything else is fluff, fun to RP, but strictly speaking not necessary.

And fine, its obviously a house rule as it is now, but even still the "field medic" explanation doesn't work. It doesn't matter where or when a PC casts Raise Dead, it will always incur a worse penalty than the temple of Helm cleric, no matter whether they are at the temple of Helm, or in their own church, at the campfires, or out in a dungeon. And permanently losing a point of constitution is by far the worst penalty of all.

So, It doesn't make sense and it does make the spell Raise Dead something of utterly last resort, for the situations when everyone is likely to die if that character doesn't come back. How rare are those though, as opposed to making the trek back to the temple of Helm? I doubt my cleric will ever cast it with the relevant penalties involved. I'll just have to wait till I can cast Resurrection, assuming I ever get to that level.

[Saulus]

As interesting as the idea of a "field medic" scenario is to explain the inferiority of the casting cleric, there is nothing in the rules to support it. It would be a house rule. Raise Dead takes 1 minute to cast, and requires 5000 gold worth of diamonds. Thats it, nothing about needing a temple or anything else, nothing about fatiguing the cleric either. Anything else is fluff, fun to RP, but strictly speaking not necessary.

And fine, its obviously a house rule as it is now, but even still the "field medic" explanation doesn't work. It doesn't matter where or when a PC casts Raise Dead, it will always incur a worse penalty than the temple of Helm cleric, no matter whether they are at the temple of Helm, or in their own church, at the campfires, or out in a dungeon. And permanently losing a point of constitution is by far the worst penalty of all.

So, It doesn't make sense and it does make the spell Raise Dead something of utterly last resort, for the situations when everyone is likely to die if that character doesn't come back. How rare are those though, as opposed to making the trek back to the temple of Helm? I doubt my cleric will ever cast it with the relevant penalties involved. I'll just have to wait till I can cast Resurrection, assuming I ever get to that level.

You will have to sweat and bleed to get spells as powerful as ressurection to get those benefits, as in NWN2 we take them for granted, where instead Sundren is trying to convey a sense of difficulty and a slightly higher degree of realism. Where the line is drawn with that is a call we make all the time.