Disguises

[Shadoweaver]

I just want to say, we still need some guidance on disguises. For now, I'll be using my own system (spot against Bluff) and RPing according to the results, but this is going to cause problems for people who don't agree with my system. We still need a ruling on this.

Shad

[undeadsteak]

What would disguises have to do with bluff? And if you saw someone with a helmet on and full plate armor on, eh, you really wouldn't be able to tell who they are regardless of your spot.

[Kangleton]

*sigh*

Why is everyone so dependant upon dice rolls? Why is everyone so reliant upon the character sheet, rather than the character RP? Why can we all not just observe the RP and decide for ourselves how believable it is, how well done it is, how reasonable it is?

For one, conversation skills are not to be used on other PC's. Bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate are devised with NPC's in mind, and the skill description outlines this. There was an entire thread on this topic, and it was apparently decided that dice rolls are not what guides RP. Instead, RP guides RP. Its a better system. Players are not required to alter their RP based upon such dice rolls - bluff is inconsequential.

Secondly, by logic, the form of diguise will cause a difference in the skill actually used. Bluff and diplomacy would realistically guide verbal differences such as accents, patterns of speach, (etc.) whereas the use of materials and clothing could be dependant on the stealth skills. Perform is another obvious skill that could be involved in the use of disguises. Therefore, depending on the way the disguise is used, a different roll could be used - though I still don't understand why there must be a roll at all.

Thirdly, if you really are going to make a roll, pick the right time. If you see a girl tending to crops outside a farm, wearing farming clothes, who then claims to be a farmer... just save the dice rolls. Come on. Please.

Even better though, again, just don't roll at all. Let RP dictate the situation and it's outcome. Be the character, not the character sheet.

[Shadoweaver]

As I have said again and again, someone has to rule on this. There is no point in justifying my position to you. The point here is, we need to have a rule, then we can move on and use it, as it stands now if Oshala and I are in the same zone, it's asking for disaster RP wise.

Shad

[CharacterInWhite]

As I have said again and again, someone has to rule on this. There is no point in justifying my position to you. The point here is, we need to have a rule, then we can move on and use it, as it stands now if Oshala and I are in the same zone, it's asking for disaster RP wise.

Shad

I was sitting next to a wagon.

I'm not seeing the disaster.

[panoflex]

Alright, been reading and was hoping over the course of a thread or two the problem would have panned out around players choices and hopefully would have come to a conclusion. Guess that did not happen.

As it stands there is no reason why someone would guess first hand whom someone is in a disguise at all, no PC is all-knowing of the world around them. Skill rolls only act as a guideline on how your character will react to a situation. This heavily depends on the amount of role play put into the actions, so if Character A in a disguise goes through the trouble of roleplaying their disguise so everyone around them knows what they are trying to portray, and Character B right off the bat picks up who it is and whats going on is in my opinion metagaming and won't be tolerated.

I have personally watched Oshala's roleplay in her disguises and I can see no reason why anybody (unless they are some sort of uber-wise monk thats quite a high level) would pick up on these sorts of things. If she gave you a reason for your character to act against her than I see no problem, but I have not seen nor heard anything that justifies it. You (Z'huul) seem to be taking the matter pretty personally out of character by the rampant number of posts I've seen, so please cool it. Enjoy the roleplay, investigate where these Shar conspirators are and what they've been doing. Don't just point a finger at the campfire and be done with it. Thats it.

[CharacterInWhite]

...

I have personally watched Oshala's roleplay in her disguises and I can see no reason why anybody (unless they are some sort of uber-wise monk thats quite a high level) would pick up on these sorts of things. If she gave you a reason for your character to act against her than I see no problem, but I have not seen nor heard anything that justifies it. You (Z'huul) seem to be taking the matter pretty personally out of character by the rampant number of posts I've seen, so please cool it. Enjoy the roleplay, investigate where these Shar conspirators are and what they've been doing. Don't just point a finger at the campfire and be done with it. Thats it.

Thanks for defending me Panoflex (not sure who your in-game persona is...), but I can see his point when I'm the newspaper girl or the waittress. In such cases, I'm less blend-like and usually draw a little more attention. I can see his concern for disguise rules, which in such a case is less physical and more acting.

[Kangleton]

Haha, he said uber-wisdom can still pick up on your disguises. I win. 30 wisdom eats your face.

[Vildamar]

As far as the PnP game is concerned, characters only get a chance to see through a disguise when the disguised character either draws undue attention to him- or herself or is disguised as a specific person the observer is personally familiar with. Therefore, if someone's masquerading as your next-door-neighbor Suzie, you can make a Spot check, but if that someone is disguised as a waitress in a tavern there's no reason for suspicion.
PnP Disguise Skill

[ThePaganKing]

I think the roleplay portion is very important and not necessarily the roll. I have a character that will be using disguises and clothing and such to mask his true self. If you see a guy in the shadows and he is wearing a dark cloak that covers most of his body and he has a hood that shadows his face pretty much completely. Then he alters his voice a bit, how would you know this person if you saw them wearing regular clothes and such in town or around a campfire.

Unless you pick up on a particular way he walks or talks? You can also roleplay that you vaguely see a large scar down one cheek and missing teeth...these can all be used with just a bit of makeup. In the shadows of a hood, unless you are really looking hard and have a high spot or wisdom, why wouldn't you think the person has a scar or missing teeth.

Then you see a fresh faced person in a red cloak and armor and what....you think its the dark figured person with messed up face.

The thing is if you are doing disguises, just roleplay it and state in a tell or IC (you see a shadowy figure wearing a full length black cloak and a large hood that hides most of his face. When the light is just right, you can detect a vague outline of a scar and a tooth or two is missing in the front of his mouth).

[rustediron]

I personally take both rp and the roll - use circumstantial rp to modify the dc/modifie.

eg. My 'disguise' is just a 'samurai mask' I bought in the trading post - dc 5 ish, listen or spot.
I'm wearing somewhat different clothes to go with the mask - slightly higher, maybe 15ish
Fullplate armour and helmet - no need for roll, there should be no suspicion in this disguise.

[Shadoweaver]

I'm just going to say it again, we need a system. Someone needs to make the rules, and then players can know how to disguise themselves and how to see through disguises. I'll obey whatever system the DM's set up, but we need one.

Shad

[sparkeh]

I don't think that having a 'DM ruling' on this is a good idea as each instance of this is unique and circumstantial. Its not like a simple attribute vs attribute test, like an arm wrestle using STR stats, its far more complex than that and more like a judgement call.

I agree with Rusted that it should be a mixture of roleplay and rollplay (urgh I hate that phrase and myself for using it) but remembering that rolls are a guide. If you are a waitress and have your face uncovered, I think the chance of being discovered is high (and perhaps have to talk your way out of it) whereas someone with a hood over their face at night, low.

Personally I would have no problem with someone letting a group of people know they were disguised, rolling a bluff check to demonstrate how well they were plaing the part and RPing it out. My reaction would depend on how many times I had met the person, the roll and their disguise.