Stormlords

[Venture]

an assasin is evil because he kills people for money, plain and simple.

[Jaeram]

Meh, I still think an assassin could be non evil, neutral for instance, and I don't think poison is evil, if that's the case clerics and druids who aren't evil should never use spells like disease, or umm.. what that other one called again? Oh yeah... poison.. I'm almost tempted to make a non evil assassin now, a soldier of fortune, that's like saying the A-team was evil. Although the rules for an assassin in PnP is different, the whole basis for my argument was that it's because Obsidian adapts the classes the way they do, in PnP I would have SO many other choices I wouldn't have to be an assassin to get those enhanced abilities, I could be something like a Kensai, or a Samurai, or if I just wanted to crack open the guidebook to bard and rogues I have class options like Spymaster, Vigilante, Dungeon Delver, and Outlaw of the Crimson Road (some are like Robin Hood). So I would never have to choose Assassin if I wanted him to specialize a certain way, but with NWN2 your choices are kind of limited not to mention in PnP if you really wanted to make you character a certain way and had a good DM he would probably not be against you creating your own variation of a class giving up certain abilities to further specialize in others. I just don't always agree with the way Obsidian decided to lump certain skills together, or maybe chose not to add a certain class because they thought it was too similar or what not. If I had to say are most assassins evil I would probably say yes, but are ALL 100% assassins evil I would have to say no because I don't think you can put that kind of qualifier on an entire class like that, that isn't deriving it's power from an evil god or something like a blackguard for instance.

[Gairun]

Um Jaeram you have to be evil to take a level in Assassin, it's not really a choice, it's a requirement, And Obsidian is not the one who put that requirement in as it's straight from pen and paper. So the statement "All people who have a level in Assassin are of evil alignment" Would be a true statement.

I think you have me a little confused as to what your trying to say. If your saying we have more choices in Pen and Paper then I'm totally understanding you and agree, if your trying to say something else then I'm not following you.

EDIT: it's just like saying are all Dwarven Defenders Dwarves? Answer is yes.

[Jaeram]

Right, what I'm saying is in PnP I would have many many other choices to advancing my rogueish arts than NWN2 gives me. I know the assassin class in PnP has those requirements, but due to the limited choice we have for some occupations or PRC's I feel it would be a lot easier and more enjoyable for everyone's experiences if some rules were amended for certain classes (in this case that Stormlord or assassin) instead of whipping up PRC's from scratch as the DM team has mentioned that is quite a daunting task. I obviously only mentioned a few options of MANY, MANY, PnP choices. In NWN2 though we basically only have Rogue, Invisible Blade (although this class doesn't really seem that rogueish to me) Assassin, Duelist (once again if you consider that rogueish), Shadow Thief, and Shadow Dancer. After that list if I look at the ones that really say stealthy rogue type, I'm left with Rogue, Assassin, Shadow Thief, and Shadow Dancer. If I want to talk strictly focus and PRC that removes Rogue. Where as in PnP I would probably have way more choices than those remaining three. I guess that's the way I see it, that while some classes should have alignment restrictions, for some reason those two classes don't make as much sense to me in the over all context of options we have available as of right now in NWN2. I guess you feel kind of jipped if you like to play the stealthy type but not necessarily the evil stealthy type, cause it's like saying yeah you can hide, but your stabs won't be as good as that evil guy's, cause he's well... evil, he must be better at it.

Edit - I decided to link this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prestige_classes for anyone reading this topic and wondering how many prestige classes PnP has, this is a pretty good list of the PRC's published by the company itself, not to mention all the other non official custom PRC's out there that other DM's and players have created. For the particular classes we've been talking about I would direct attention to book sections Song and Silence, Complete Adventurer, and Complete Scoundrel. Although other sections have some cool rogueish classes too.

[Kangleton]

It's 1:00am and I didn't read all of your fancy long posts. Freaks. I skimmed though - oh yes! I did. And my compiled notes on what I have gathered lead me to the formation of my thesis:

Batman was a Chaotic Good Paladin/Assassin of Tyr.

Based on D&D standards, yes, I know Assassins are required to be evil. Yes, poisons and sneak attacks are underhanded - but Batman was underhanded, and he's a super hero. That is where the chaotic aspect comes into play, as people who do underhanded things for the greater good are not evil, but are certainly not lawful. I shall elaborate no further on the relevance of Batman.

And in relation to the Stormlord class, I must say that this is much like the original NWN. They had Champion of Torm or some such, which most servers made an acception for, and allowed it to be a Champion of any Good-Aligned deity, as to have it not be so limiting. This is the exact same thing. Of course, with the Tormite, it was not called a Tormite; it would be renamed as a Champion of Tyr, or something or other.

Why could the Stormlord not be referred to as a Thunderwalker, or some other uncreative name that directly relates to the abilities? Afterall, that is all a PRC is, right? It is a combination of abilities, that has been assigned to a specific title. Those abilities though, can exist seemlessly under a different brand, just as was the case in NWN1.

Nobody could ever call themselves a Stormlord though, unless it was indeed a blessing from Talos. Obviously.

I mean, in D&D there would be a work-around. There would be alternative classes, spells, or abilities that would grant more options. But in NWN2, we are extremely limited, and I would look at this only as a way to compensate for what is lacking in the implementation. Since there is no alternative to the Stormlord class in NWN2, as there would be in D&D, we have to compensate, no?

Bah, whatever. Bedtime.

[sharringtonm]

Since there is no alternative to the Stormlord class in NWN2

Ahem. YET.

[Kangleton]

Ok, like, I seriously don't even know what to say. Thats exactly what I'm talking about though, when I say that we need to compensate for what the game currently lacks - but I didn't think we would compensate compensate.

<3

[Jaeram]

Kangleton seems to be on the same page with me, it's just about trying to compensate for NWN2's shortcomings by using our imagination. It's just like how the garbage elves want us to RP that all the little bags that drop from our kills are actually little corpses that need to be dealt with, they are trying to compensate for one of NWN2's shortcomings.

Ahem. YET.

I don't know if it's a tip off to us, but even if the DM's plan to make a lightning spear warrior whatever in house PRC, since all that takes a lot of time, I would think that it would be a bit nicer for some people if we temporarily adapted to the situation don't you think? I'm pretty sure that adapting that class wouldn't take much just changing the requirement script (I'm assuming it has something like that) from Evil to Any. I do not in any way wish this post to sound as if I do not think the DM's do a great job with this server, because I think they do a better job than any other server I've ever played on, and since we don't know what the DM's have planned for the future (for all I know you guys might be planning to add every PRC from PnP, although I have to say that would be a truly amazing feat, I would be surprised if that kind of update didn't opt Obsidian to just opt for it to be an expansion of it's own and pay you for it lol) so I'm fairly limited at looking at the now. Since the game already gives us Stormlord (for evil's) and you guys made Ice Fury of Auril (for evils maybe neutrals) the only thing I have to think is they will either keep with the trend and make fire/earth versions that are evil or make fire/earth versions good. I wouldn't really think you would consider making another Lightning version only in good form.

Once again, you guys do a great job, I just have to think a bit in the now, so keep up with the good work. Also, while I still believe an assassin shouldn't have to be evil (not pending PnP req's which weren't added to NWN2 i.e. kill in cold blood), I'm willing to let that part of the conversation go as I have done a whole lot of tinkering with stealth builds and found one to my liking that I would prefer over assassin anyways. I still think the assassin 'skill set' does not seem evil enough to me to deem it req'd evil.

Edit - Wow I type a lot...

[Drider-man]

Honestly, I prefer assasins as evil and Stormlords as talosians only.
I don't really see what the problem is, if you want to play a Stormlord, worship Talos. If you want to be good a using as spear, play a fighter and specialize in it.
I realise that there are a select few other deities where the Stormlord might fit in as well, but taking that road simply leads to more troubles as there will ALWAYS be an argument for why someone should be allowed to do something that most others aren't allowed...

[Venture]

Batman was a Chaotic Good Paladin/Assassin of Tyr.

Really? do you read much batman? cause that is way off.

monk/rogue maybe, definately not assasin, assasins kill people for money, seriously that is an act of evil, killing for the greater good, thats not particularily evil, killing to make a buck, most certainly is, and Batman does neither.

[wangxiuming]

Morality is so complicated, and the alignment system does at best a passable job of representing it. What it fails to take into account is very often a person's own judge of their own morality will be very different from others' view of his morality. For example, somebody who believes the end justifies the means will probably think that he's "Good" as long as what he does results in that general direction. On the other hand, those who don't share that kind of view might think this person is "Evil."

Frankly, a lot of these alignment restrictions don't make sense at all. Bards need to be non-lawful because they sing? Singing is against the law? Assassins need to be evil? Really? What about an assassin that only goes after evil dictators? But alas, that's just the way it goes sometimes.

As a side note, I personally do not think any ability supernatural or not, should be labeled "Evil." A rogue's sneak attack in the back, an assassin coating his blade with poison, a warlock's demonic power - sure, these things are perhaps not the most noble way to fight ... but it is ultimately the user who decides when to use them, and it is their actions that should be judged, not the fact that they use abilities that aren't considered honorable. A sword is just a sword - it's the courageous knight or the cowardly backstabber that determines what the sword is used for.

[Gairun]

A fighter, bard, cleric, mage or even a druid can 'Assassinate' someone. To be an 'Assassin' though requires killing anyone for nothing more then money, usually with no choice in who or what the target is. And the reason for Bards being non-lawful is that they are characterized as free spirits who aren't tied down with authorities and traditions.

Also I love you Venture, Batman was always portrayed and written as the Anti-Hero willing to commit evil acts if the ends justified the means.

And also we could have endless debates about the alignment system but we really won't get anywhere at all. There is like a hundred page long thread in the Wizards of the Coast forums about assassins and alignment requirements for classes. It's a pointless discussion, we should try to focus on something a bit more constructive like making suggestions for new PrC's we would actually like to see.

[wangxiuming]

My whole point was that the definitions of classes, alignments, and such set by the game may not necessarily fit into what everybody thinks they should be ... which I guess is evident by that 100 page long forum thread you mention Gairun. :P

[Kangleton]

Really? do you read much batman? cause that is way off.

monk/rogue maybe, definately not assasin, assasins kill people for money, seriously that is an act of evil, killing for the greater good, thats not particularily evil, killing to make a buck, most certainly is, and Batman does neither.

I watched the movie!

And "Assassin" is not characterized by someone who kills for money. An Assassin can kill for monetary reasons, yes, but also for fanatical reasons, religious reasons, philisophical reasons, and political reasons - without reward in the form of currency.

-One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person.

-A murderer, esp. one who kills a politically prominent person for fanatical or monetary reasons.

Those are just pulled off www.dictionary.com right this moment, but there are more in-depth definitions I have seen as well. Regardless, Assassin's do not always kill for money, and therefore, BATMAN WAS INDEED A CHAOTIC GOOD PALADIN/ASSASSIN OF TYR.

Thankyouverymuch.

[Gairun]

I shall elaborate no further on the relevance of Batman.

You talked about Batman again! hehe I gots ya now!

EDIT: Batman was also an Atheist and did not believe in religion. So paladin is a no can do! :P