DM Warning - Shadow Dancer One Level

[GodBeastX]

We generally let people power build as they see fit. Saves us headaches of going over people. We do ask that people RP their builds though.

A few people look at Shadow Dancer, Lvl 1 and ask themselves "If could... I could just takes that one level and HIPS". So I'll put this on your heads.

Anyone who I see Shadow Dancing at Lvl 1 shadow dancer, might find themselves not skilled enough to find their way back out of the shadows once they enter Go ahead and marinade on that for a minute

[Zoberraz]

There are alternatives to get Hide in Plain Sight. On is 17 ranger levels and it only works in the outdoors. The other is the Assassins, whom get it on level 7.

And GBX only mentions penalties for 1 Shadowdancer level. You can still pick two ;-)
Seriously though, the second level of Shadowdancer is of some worth: it does give Darkvision.

[Stonehouse]

Perhaps a minimum class level house rule is in order, just to alleviate any ambiguity. I can appreciate the concern since I've thought that one before but a line should be drawn; 2 levels, 3 levels etc regardless of what class it is. Also, inevitably people are going to say "I plan on taking more levels in the future".
Just some more to chew on since the can has been opened...

[Darkended Blade]

There is a problem with that, you may find a rogue who is leveling up in SD but has only started. Just a request, if I may, that you give the PC you find a warning, eg "i will check your levels in X days time, you better have more SD levels." I plan to take some levels, but i dont want to be accused of cherry picking when i start.


Does that makes sense? Basically you cant be sure they wont take more levels in SD.

[Zoberraz]

We generally let people power build as they see fit. Saves us headaches of going over people. We do ask that people RP their builds though.

Like he said. I'm personally not looking forward to any house rule on that level. I do not really mind people taking 1 level of Shadowdancer: that class already has fairly hefty prerequisites anyways which makes even the people running after it need at least 7 rogue levels before qualifying.

Having played a level 10 rogue/level 17 shadowdancer in Hordes of the Underdark, I can relate with why people do not find the later levels so attractive. A level 1 shadowdancer is one whom has learned to more easily step into shadows to hide, but whom will never really master the whole of his craft, such as seeing better in darkness, summoning a companion made of the fabric of shadow itself and how to manipulate shadows to better protect oneself - and that's in addition to the ability of narrowly dodging a killing blow and getting out of dodge when a fireball comes roaring in.

I'd respect the right to dabble, personally. I also believe that characters roleplaying thier class and picking more levels as they invest themselves in that class will bring prestige of its own. GBX chose to hint at penalties regarding those whom went for a dip to get one of the more sought after feature of the Shadowdancer, but DMs are swell people: they will note if you have more than one level in something like the shadowdancer class or the harper agent class. You might get huge roleplaying benefits out of it.

When the DM goes around and looks at character participating in a quest, to whom do you think he'll reward the Boots of Stealthificationess +10? To the Rogue12/Shadowdancer1 or the Rogue7/Shadowdancer6?

[Darkended Blade]

When the DM goes around and looks at character participating in a quest, to whom do you think he'll reward the Boots of Stealthificationess +10? To the Rogue12/Shadowdancer1 or the Rogue7/Shadowdancer6?

Neither?

[Blue_Wyrm]

I also planned in the far future to put Roger's 5 last levels (16-20) into Shadowdancer, because I like the touch of supernatural it will add into his "graceful and clever fighter" concept... and if he gets there without being perma-killed it will be obviously because he's been friggin' discreet anyway. >_> Anyway that's very far away, but I was just wondering how it would be possible to keep track of these things; would it be possible GBX to script in that, once you get your first level of Shadowdancer, you have to pick at least X more levels on every subsequent level ups (like, the server auto-delevels you if you level up with another class level until you have X levels of that class).

[Rhifox]

Minimum class levels aren't necessary. Honestly, as people have said in the past, even a single level is supposed to be defined as a lot of training and work ICly. Well-rounded characters are more likely to have 1 or 2 levels of certain classes to indicate it being a part of their character's varied experience. For instance, even FR's big-time show guy, Mr. Elminster, has 1 level of Fighter, 2 levels of rogue, and 3 levels of cleric, alongside his high wizard/archmage/epic levels. Personally, I hate how NWN only allows 4 classes because I think it's impossible for a real character to not pick up one or two levels here and there of many, many classes. I really do hate class systems due to that limitation.

What people seem to forget is that taking a single level in a class is not always a good thing from a powerbuilding stance. For one, except for taking levels in High BAB classes, taking a single level in a new class means you're one BAB behind where you'd be without having taken that class. Two classes and you're two behind. And so on. In addition, very few classes are really actually good with only one level. Fighter and Shadow Dancer are the two main ones, IMO. 1 level of Pale Master is good as well for low level wizards but after that it isn't needed anymore (like Sleep).

There's also the 4 class limit to consider, if you take 1 level of a class now, you may get locked out of taking a class you really want in the future. And on RP servers where your RP might lead you to another class, it's kinda lame when you can't take the class that your RP has suddenly led to in the future.


Concerning Shadow Dancer itself.... the way I see it is that HiPS is not a stand-alone feat. You can't just take Shadow Dancer and suddenly have an uber ability. For HiPS to work you still have to pound out skill points in hide and move silently, limiting other skills you could take (in other words, only rogues can 'safely' take it and get full use out of it. It's not a feat that you can take and suddenly get full benefit). That being said, the problem with Shadow Dancer is that it's front loaded... it puts all its good stuff up front but has nothing worthwhile after that 1st level. IMO, it'd be better to have the class reworked, maybe move HiPS around inside of it, and give it more abilities to make it worth taking for more than just HiPS.

[moondiggidy]

the problem with Shadow Dancer is that it's front loaded... it puts all its good stuff up front but has nothing worthwhile after that 1st level. IMO, it'd be better to have the class reworked, maybe move HiPS around inside of it

That sounds like a fantastic idea personally, maybe give the HiPS at lvl 2 or 3.

[Machiavelli]

Surely the Shadow minion thing must be worthwhile too? I always liked the idea of that!

[ipsissimus]

You can't really go by the stat blocks from FR books, as it's an interpretation of how it would be possible mechanically for the character to possibly known how to do all those things.

Artemis is a perfect example...the guy clearly doesn't have enough disable device levels in his character sheet after reading about what he does in the novels.

4 classes is a great improvement though I have to say that.

Shadowdancer is actually built in favor of Bards, sure HiPs with SA is godly but 2+ levesl of SD for classes like bards, some rangers, monks etc is much more attractive.

I believe there are other ways to encourage players to invest in more level of SD...I've seen it quite often at the Crossroads. *snickers*

[Rhifox]

You can't really go by the stat blocks from FR books, as it's an interpretation of how it would be possible mechanically for the character to possibly known how to do all those things.

Exactly. And interpretations based on what the characters do show that for a character that's really experienced and broad, taking a single or very few levels in many classes is only natural.

[VladmireTriskavanski]

Well i might be accused of cherry picking for some of my rp ideas, even in pnp.

Because i build my characters with certain aspects in mind. Like "How can i make a badass duel whip master?)

Then i look at my class options and the like.

Fighters have feats. Rogues have the ability to move around easier. ect.

So i pick a few levels of fighter to get my feats for being able to wield two whips at the same times, and my levels of rogue to be the high mobility fighter type character...

Now if there was a class that removed SA and replaced it with something geared towards my ideals there and allowed me to do what i wanted, i would.



Same if my characters were to take RWoT.

Its not that they are RWoT, its that they have become so focused in their study that they forget the rest of the world around them. Thus increasing their DC for their chosen spell group, while lowering their selection of spells.


I tend to look more of what the class can do and how that can assist to my "action hero" like characters, rather than everything else that the book says.


This is why i make wizards who get up and fight with their fists rather than spells, or paladins with an ODD that may seem completely chaotic to an outsider, but is perfectly normal in that characters world.

Just people tend to be "thats not what the Book says you should rp it like"

[ipsissimus]

Nothing wrong with playing a stereotypical archtype character...in fact it's so rare these days because everyone and their mom wants to be special.

When you try and stand out in a crowd of people who are all trying to stand out, the normal guy or girl is who gets noticed most.

In the end, have fun and even though there's limitations on what you can mechanically roll up, you're only limited by your creativity.

...and your login time.

[GodBeastX]

My issue is I see wierd classes taking it just for the HiPS. 19 wizard, 1 Shadow Dance HMMMMM! WONDER WHAT HE PLANS TO DO WITH THAT?! And then others begging to get rebuilt to have 1 shadow dancer. COUGH GAG YUCK!

I know these people aren't RP'ing what a shadow dancer is, so I force them into it, that's my job as DM. You go and dance around the shadows, something might happen, that's all I'm saying. Better be good at it.