RP Tip - The Cleric

[GodBeastX]

Someone asked for some tips for Clerics after reading my paladin post. Clerics need major help in Sundren I feel. Many of the player base just looks at them as melee fighters with spells. So I'm going to focus on that aspect of Sundren where we need direction. I'll start with the statistics:

Clerics (158) 13.06%

~1 in 8 (or 1 in 7) people on sundren are a priest to their god. Let's be honest, alot of you picked cleric because it's one of the strongest classes in NWN2. This is made extra apparent as you try to fit your god/domains to your build rather than your RP. This makes me teary eyed alot, why? Because clerics have one of the BIGGEST potentials for RP of any classes.

For example:

Tempus's clerics pray for spells just before highsun. The eves and anniversaries of great battles are the holy days of the church of Tempus, and as such vary from place to place. The Feast of the Moon, honouring the dead, is the most important fixed date in the religious calendar. Each temple holds a Feast of Heroes at highsun and a Song of the Fallen at sunset, and most have a Song of the Sword ceremony after dark for layfolk. It is also expected that at least once a tenday worshipers of Tempus spill a few drops of blood (preferably their own or a worthy foe's) and sing the Song of the Sword in Tempus's honour. The ritual performed by most of the faithful is a prayer for valiant performance and survival in the fray ahead, made to their war deity over the weapon the praying being most often fights with. If a new weapon comes into the believer's possession before a battle- particularly in the form of hard-won booty- it is taken as a sign of Tempus's favour, and this weapon is the one used in worship. Tempus's clerics usually multiclass as barbarians, divine champions, or fighters. Most tend to be battle-minded male humans, although others are also welcome.

How many clerics of Tempus are engaging in any of those mentioned rituals? Holy days? And so on and so forth. Even a level 1 cleric should be spending time doing things of this nature. One thing to note especially is EVERY Deity has a time for prayer in which you gain your spells, have you considered waiting to rest until that time of day and RPing out the event of prayer? This can add a TON of flavor to your character. Technically, if you're not engaging in any of the practices of your god, you would lose your clerical spells, just like paladins lose their paladinhood for evil acts. If it will help people to research their gods, we as DMs might start enforcing that. I'd hate for alot of people to have to go through Attonements

Now, for the cleric description in GBX terms. Clerics are a representative of their god. They help lead the faithful, discern many things (Wisdom is very important) and become speakers on their god's behalf in the realm. They are expected to follow the codes and guidelines of their gods above all things (Hence alignment restrictions) and encourage others to do so as well.

I notice there's a great many clerics with low charisma. A GREAT many. To me this makes very little sense. How can you lead those of your god's flock if you yourself are not charismatic in the slightest and counter charismatic in practice? Can you sway people to your beliefs and your god's? Can you imagine a cleric of Tyr trying to get people in a courtroom to consider justice if the cleric doesn't have the speaking ability to address the crowd of people?

The cleric to me is almost like an avatar in that regard. Sure they differ in personality and focus on different quality of their god between each cleric, but they still are the church authority. And RP should surround that concept. Gather people together and preach to them. You see people in your flock moving away from your god, it's your job to deal with that. Proclaim holy days! Defend your temples! Publically speak to the masses! Lead people in prayer and rituals! This is what clerics do.

You will find that as you work these ideas into your RP your RP will become much more rewarding. This is partly why I encourage people to stick to the gods of their races. Why? Because the above actions can become goofy with other races involved. For example, I have a Drow NPC some of you have met. Can you imagine a Drow being a priest of Torm? Even IF they were L/G? How could they lead Humans in prayer, or preach to the masses? You're more than just a follower of your god, you're expected, by your god, to manage their churches and orders and people.

You can also dig into lower levels of being a cleric. Imagine the real world. How many of you have gone to church/temple/or meetings and heard your religeous heads speak? Everything about them is surrounded with their god. They draw examples from their holy books. Dress with symbols. Their lessons in teaching come from histories of their beliefs. It goes on and on. This is what clerics are. And like I said, even 1 level of cleric in your build should be following that because even level 1 clerics can lose their spells.

We've been blessed with players who take the time to gather information for our Wiki on gods so you as players can gain from the information. Apply the information, enact the information, come to DMs if you need help with it, that's what we're there for.

[GodBeastX]

So I did a little more research after posting and it seems my being able to spellhook to make clerics unable to cast spells if they lose their deity's favor, requiring attonement, isn't hard at all ^_^

Guess what GBX has on his tonight todo list?

[Scourn]

A problem I see is said people who follow a god, and know a cleric of it, never go to them for anything. No, I wish to mend how I have strayed, I wish to be enlightened, or I just wish to pray with you because your a cleric.

People who arnt clerics seem to just wiki their god and have their character know its story, and everything about it. I find that distrubing. And especially those who convert. Ive seen a few convert, and they act like they know all of their god. Id think not.

Ive tried to have rp sessions with doing doing the above things, simply prayering togeather or speak about how to be closer to the god, but all I get back is "No thanks im fine." Well ,we will see who meets their god and who only gets to go to the wall in the end

[GodBeastX]

Hey, keep it in mind, maybe poke DMs with it. Sometimes we don't see things players see. We sometimes like to shift things around with players who aren't clerics too.

[Iceshard5]

Well a priest isnt one to be charismatic.. they generally arent the ones leading the war party on a crusade.. Thats the paladin.

As for the RPin religious stuff.. no one sits around in temples much, I have done it a couple times but I end up looking at a wall by my self.. so when I log off thats the time of "prayer"

And as for the gather people around and preach... what do you do when someone knocks at your door giving out papers on X religion? Generally you shut the door, or say no thanks.... why would people be any different in game? Not everyone wants to hear about religion.. they really are just a farm boy turned soldier.

So I keep any religious stuff down to a minimum, and yes I still act like a cleric/priest..

Hey thats just my .02

[GodBeastX]

And you'll wind up without cleric powers. It's not a matter of "I'll do it when I feel like it. " this is the class. How can a cleric say "I try to keep the religeous stuff down to a minimum."

*Marks IceShard down for loss of powers*

This thread wasn't a "I ask you clerics to please RP being a cleric, please *pleads*" it's a "This is what a cleric is." Try reading up on your god. Preaching and temples don't work for you? There's 1000's of other things you can be doing.

And leading an army isn't the only use for Charisma. Please reread my examples.

[neosonic66]

I don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but isn't this whole thread the complete opposite of what was intended in the other thread about OOC/IC hate over how people RP and to what degree they RP? It just sounds dangerously like 'You will RP your class the way I tell you.' Which seems to me very counterproductive to the other thread that appears to give people the room to RP how they RP. I play a cleric to Correllon Larethian, so in my opinion, the outdoors IS my temple.

Furthermore, he champions the warrior. So it would make sense that his clerics use their divine magic in preparation for battle as a melee-type warrior, not as a caster of offensive spells.

Cleric's are by no means the same across the board, and it just sounds like you're saying 'A cleric is a cleric is a cleric.'

A cleric also does not have to be a leader. A devotee to a faith is not required to lead all in their deity's cause. Self-devotion should be enough to serve a god. I don't recall anywhere in any of the descriptions of the Faerunian pantheon that faiths are evangelistic in nature, so why do cleric's have to go around preaching and trying to draw others to their religion? The don't. It's quite possible for a cleric to respect other people's faiths and not try to draw them in constantly. A pious cleric doesn't man a cleric constantly talking about their God's glory and prowess. They may very well keep it to themselves, yet still honor their god deeply and do his work.

*edit*
As far as I'm concerned, every cleric is a different class based upon what deity they follow. Just because a cleric is not out there trying to convert and preach the good word is NOT the same as 'keeping the religious stuff to a minimum'. It's simply tolerance for others, and keeping your faith in your own way, INTERNALLY, which is quite possible without being disloyal to your deity.

[undeadsteak]

People who arnt clerics seem to just wiki their god and have their character know its story, and everything about it. I find that distrubing. And especially those who convert. Ive seen a few convert, and they act like they know all of their god. Id think not.

Yeah, but remember you don't know every single thing about everyones life, and theres a chance they could have learnt much more about that god before, or even served the god.



As for clerics not always needing charisma, what use is a cleric who can't sway others with his words, and make people follow in his faith? Just so he can run around smiting stuff in the gods name? Charisma should be neccessary, as you should be preaching your faith.

[neosonic66]

Charisma should be neccessary, as you should be preaching your faith.

Why? Why does a cleric have to be an evangelist? Are all people in the actual clergy evangelistic in nature? Why can't a cleric serve their god without trying to get everyone else to? I don't like how being a cleric is associated with being a religious zealot and crusader, it's simply not the case. It's a stereotype, and it's bad RP, otherwise all cleric's would be cookie-cutter (insert deity here) preachers.

[Iceshard5]

Neosonic66 makes great sense..

Just leave clerics to RP the way they feel they should be played..

This wouldnt be an open invite for people to act like crazy out of line spell casters, but dont make them do something they wouldnt normally do.

[Scourn]

Yeah, but remember you don't know every single thing about everyones life, and theres a chance they could have learnt much more about that god before, or even served the god.

Im more specifically talking about the people I know who converted. But also in general. Clerics will know more and always be the people to go to regardless on what your character knows. Hence why they are clerics.

[Brygun]

Well hmm....

Staff are here to outline things about concepts they feel need to play up.

Each diety is indeed different. Corellon was one example. Selune's write up mentions pretty much anywhere the moonshines, To quote: "anywhere the full moon shines is the place for Selune" Hence Quola doing moondances just about anywhere and everywhere.

I disagree greatly with a concept that the point of the clergy is to spread the religion. It is the point of the religion to guide people whether by advise or example. Often but not always this leads to expanding the religion but expansion is NOT the goal. Example protrayal is what cleric's do... "avatar' as GBX described it is. To act like the diety does/did/would.

Grummsh cleric for insatnce is more into gathering more orcs so he can kill more elves not to have more orcs pray to Grummsh.

The Clerics of D&D are not modern priests. The cleric class is fully trained in armor and a variety of weapons. They ARE the ones to form crusades and go on them.

The Paladin is the pinnacle warrior, for the dieties that are able to have them (and not all are).

For both Paladin and Clerics the divine tie can be broken on the diety side (ie the staff). The power is not the PCs. That's right. The power comes from the diety and its on loan.

Now some things I have seen is a follower of Tempus wanting to fight a dangerous one on one with a boss enemy. That was different and good to see. Along with the IC "dern it" when he tried again and someone not informed of it helped him.

On clerics "needing" charisma... well... if they are out to convert the masses yes. Not all are. And its not a requirement for the class, wisdom is.

There are though certainly clerics who ARE high charisma focused and out to expand the flock. But that is just one of the character styles. Just like not all rogues are pick pockets but some of them certainly are.

*puts two pennies on the table, canadian ones cause there worth more*

[Eodrin]

I think the players are correct on this one. GBX makes a fine point, though, and I can see their (the DM's) perspective on this. I've DM'd for a few servers, and I can say, many people simply pick the cleric class for the destructive power. Not the RP aim of a cleric (see "Durkon Thundershield, cleric of Thor, OOTS"), but simply to dominate other players or server built monsters.

It's not every cleric's job to convert the masses (in some cases it is, Bane, Cyric, etc), simply to be devoted. But in any case, Drow priestesses of Lolth, shouldn't be raising Champions of Corellon Larethian simply for the sake of convenience.

I'd like to talk to the staff about how/if it's possible, I could create a cleric to Bane. It sounds like fun, and I've always enjoyed Lore-related conflicts between players.

[valenator]

Any individual who has the devotion necessary to gather divine energies has an impressive power of personality to be trusted with the distribution of those energies.

Charisma isn't just talking in front of crowds. It's a presence, something all men that command divine powers granted by gods should have. Not to accuse any individual, but many people that dump Charisma tend to be building for power over roleplay, anyway.

This argument of "let people roleplay how they want to" simply doesn't apply to some classes, notably all divine-based classes. Divine favor is tangibly earned in the Forgotten Realms.

Clerics: some roleplay restrictions may apply.

[ThePaganKing]

I agree that in some cases, the God will dictate how the Cleric acts with his God's followers and the general public. I also agree that clerics need to be more in line with what their God's mission is and go out and at least talk about their God. I don't think you necessarily need to be an evangelist (unless that is a tenant of your God), but you can say, "I am a cleric of Torm, would you like to hear his word?" Now, if the person says no, or says, hey, I worship Torm, then you can either go further or leave the person alone. You can even say, "son, I am always here for help and advice and church hours are...."

As to different Gods, I have been thinking of creating a Cleric to a God that above all loves shadows, intrigue, and subtlety; therefore, I don't see him going out and trying to convert people, or lead a crusade, or evangelize, unless it was in his God's interest, in that the intrigue brings more adherents or a goal.

I can see both sides and I do believe that people create clerics a lot of times to be powerhouses and yes, Charisma is an important part of a cleric and those that have a 10or lower, IMO, should be taken out.