Death on Sundren

[Scourn]

Evil will rule, the good players will leave the server. I'm promising that now. Once a collection of evil players start running around and assassinating good plays it will snowball downhill. Good players will die or be really really weak. Server social infrastructure will collapse the end.

Incorrect. For one, anyone who just runs around killing people gets banned as it breaks the pvp rules. Its currently hard for evil. You openly act evil, I can garentee youll be caught, tried and killed. Ive been there, done that. And it keeps happening to others. So mass murder from players isnt going to happen as dms can stop it the second it starts.

I'm just saying as kindly as I can.. you can't base the server RP and good/evil balance on PVP lives. DMs should control balance. It will RUIN the server to bring permadeath pvp into Sundren.

It would make people actually care about liveing and dieing. OF course there will allways be mistakes such as factions are messed up for a second and the big npc kills you on accident, or lag deaths but. Engageing in PVP is 99% of the time not some accident. Both players know what they are getting into before hand.


Anyways, It should be harder, and slightly bigger pentalities. Like said before, low level deaths, its not a loss at all, once your 11+ or so you die, your knocked back a week worth, not everyone can dedicate a long time to work it back to where they were pre death

[deepshades]

We'll just have to agree to disagree Scourn the evil I'm talking about will not get caught. Will grow more powerful and when they can, snuff out the good guys at every pass. It can happen, it will happen. Good is more trusting, evil is more scheming.

Secondly you just reinforced my point on the xp death penalties being too harsh on the higher levels... thank you.

Harsher on lower levels.
Moderately easier on the higher levels.

[Rhifox]

I don't see any benefits at all for an increased respawn timer. This doesn't solve any issues, it makes people want to leave the server. Right now, the length of time is okay, means people can go and get something to drink or make a sandwich or something while they wait. 10-30 minutes would make people log off, go find something else to do, and I bet after awhile they'd stop logging back on. People won't wait around online, you can guarantee it.

I would sooner lose an entire level than wait even longer than we have to wait already (I don't mean 1-2k experience, I mean upwards of 10k exp). This is because of, again, the fact that I hate any and all RP related to your supposed 'death'. In groups without rezzers, the ability to resurrect allows you to say 'it might have looked like I died, but I was faking it/escaped some other way', in groups with rezzers or by taking someone to a temple, you can pretend (although no one actually does *sigh*) that it was just a major healing spell as you were dying but not already dead.

And yes, you would feel like you need to work it out. Lost time makes people want to work out that lost time, you don't have to lose exp for you to feel you've been set back.


And the soloer-hate here is annoying me. Some of us don't want to play characters who are spending their entire lives pointlessly raiding dungeons. Soloing gives the opportunity to OOCly grind somewhere and have it 'not count' since no one was with you to say otherwise. I love RP during the day when everyone is on and then soloing at night when most everyone is asleep. Grinding is not fun, even when in a group, it is OOC work. Grouping forces you to acknowledge that your constant re-running of the same place killing the same static mobs is IC (dude shouts ICly, "Prepare yourself, men, the next room is quite difficult!" <-- how do you know this ICly?).

[Machiavelli]

I'd have to agree that PvP deaths are were penalties need to be harsher. But then, I'm one who believes that death in PvP should be perma, none of this resurrection stuff. Of course, that would require more policing in case people are attempting to abuse it and randomly off players for no IC reason.

Hate to say it Rhifox, but if this were an option then Josephine would never have made it past level 6-7... Malaclypse would have killed her, simple as that, and for good IC RP reasons, so not griefing or abuse, and the reason he'd have been able to do it is because opf those d&d leveling-power mechanics which you've stated your dislike for elsewhere. Chararcter conflict can arise in all sorts of ways that, if it gets played out when people know there is PvP permadeath, it will be extremely unfair to alot of players. One silly mistake or offense given to another player and suddenly you're dead. That's not cool. If the option were available, I'd have done it to other people... but I'd probably have ended up dead before I had a chance to. C'mon people, it's a game and we're here to have fun. Permadeath is all good, but I reckon it should be by player (of the character concerned) or DM decision, not governed by some algorithm.

I very much agree with this. Having Subdual On by default sounds like a great idea, and I've seen it done on other servers, so that "colleteral damage" in battles where effortless players are present has not so much of an impact for them. And yeah... permadeath in the "not even a Resurrection spell will bring you back" sense is quite too hardcore for me. Also, I believe permadeath encourages to a certain extent the min-maxing of characters to "win" in PvP. Roleplayers who prefer playing social or unoptimized builds will feel cheated by the server rules since all their quirky traits, friends and political power can get wiped forever by a Bigby or a Harm. Finally, it enforces a certain form of meta-tyranny across the server, in the "if you're not with me I remove your character from the server" sense... I'd really vote against it.

I'm right with the worm here

[nutranurse]

Yep, Perma Death should be player/DM consent, with DM saying overriding Player's.
Though, it does detract a bit from RPing murder and such because most players will not want to give up their beloved characters which they spent so much time raiding the necropolise with to get at XX level.

[Infernal_Havok]

I think we might be missing the point. I think indirectly the question we are being asked is, if we; as the playerbase fear the penalties for death on the current system? Judging by the some of other posts, I say not really, but that is my perspective on it. The next question I would be asking is that should we all fear IC death? or just go on treating it as an inconvenience?

[Rhifox]

Hate to say it Rhifox, but if this were an option then Josephine would never have made it past level 6-7... Malaclypse would have killed her, simple as that, and for good IC RP reasons, so not griefing or abuse, and the reason he'd have been able to do it is because opf those d&d leveling-power mechanics which you've stated your dislike for elsewhere. Chararcter conflict can arise in all sorts of ways that, if it gets played out when people know there is PvP permadeath, it will be extremely unfair to alot of players. One silly mistake or offense given to another player and suddenly you're dead. That's not cool. If the option were available, I'd have done it to other people... but I'd probably have ended up dead before I had a chance to. C'mon people, it's a game and we're here to have fun. Permadeath is all good, but I reckon it should be by player (of the character concerned) or DM decision, not governed by some algorithm.

And here I will say exactly what I said to Blue_Wyrm on his post about male characters treating female characters differently because of assuming something about the player behind the character:

Stop assuming that the player behind the character does not want something to happen and then letting that drive your character's IC decisions.


If Malaclypse actually wanted to kill Josephine, then why *didn't* he? Why are you letting OOC feelings get in the way of IC reactions? Let me fight for my survival ICly instead of basing your decision on OOC beliefs.

Now, I'm not saying to suddenly pop out of the bushes and Finger of Death someone (you can do that if it really comes to it, but better to get RP out of the situation first before the night you finally do the final kill), but if your character wants to kill someone off then don't suppress those feelings because OOCly you don't want to, work towards it ICly. It can lead to good RP and drama, and doesn't necessarily lead to a fatal end in all instances, depending on how the to-be-killed character reacts.

[Ithildin]

I chose that its prefect the way it is. After dying two or three times at the Ogre caves with different groups (and different days) it took a while for someone to convince Tass and Ithil to go with someone else there and the entire time they were ready to run if things looked bad. So basically what I'm saying is.. It's really up to the players to rp fearing death, it should be feared without the ooc knowledge of penalties that come along with the deaths.

[deepshades]

I'd just like to make a point here to all these guys who love to talk about permadeath... The point of playing your character isn't to get permadeathed. ((HOHO Deepshades is so smart!!))

Its to enjoy and adventure.. share feelings with other players... develop your character dynamically.. not to stick to some static character plot of taking x and saying x and then hohoho! someone perm'd my character well that was great fun.

Thats mindless dribble to me. Your character who has lived for maybe hundreds of years isn't supposed to show up in sundren and die within the first year. Now I'm not saying that its not a possibility. Just remember that permadeath is a total reset button. Not a make an alt button but its like taking your favorite painting or child and ripping it up.

I think perma'death is important but I see people talking about it like its supposed to be a common thing. Its NOT. Redeveloping character relationships with other players is a LONG and sometimes draining process that eventually leads to deep connections. Permadeath screws this all up

Its a serious outcome. The DMs don't want to deal with perma killing lvl 5s all day who are the real RPlers and the grinders who just run off and don't talk to anyone or do anything other than just try to get xp. (Which will most likely NOT lead to a PVP permadeath.)

Anyway.. the death system is mostly fine like it is if its going to take some drastic change.

Personally I'm honestly )#@'ing amazed that people get raised. Its 2,500stags for a scroll. Needless to say if you're lvl 6 and you die... well you've usually spent a lot on healing kits and potions. You're just screwed because your buddy is broke too. Now all of a sudden you have to wait 30min? or 20min to play again? Log off.. make a sandwich end up watching Family Guy... rinse repeat.

[Fajitaduke]

I think we might be missing the point. I think indirectly the question we are being asked is, if we; as the playerbase fear the penalties for death on the current system? Judging by the some of other posts, I say not really, but that is my perspective on it. The next question I would be asking is that should we all fear IC death? or just go on treating it as an inconvenience?

The question as posed didn't allow for a precise answer. As a low level character I don't fear death because it has no penalties. If I checked that box, it would suggest that I believe higher XP penalties are needed, which I do not believe is true.

It sounds like the penalties at higher levels would frustrate me. If I said they were too harsh and I feared death, it would suggest that I believe lower XP penalties are needed. Standing on its own, I don't think that is accurate, either.

[Machiavelli]

And here I will say exactly what I said to Blue_Wyrm on his post about male characters treating female characters differently because of assuming something about the player behind the character:

Stop assuming that the player behind the character does not want something to happen and then letting that drive your character's IC decisions.


If Malaclypse actually wanted to kill Josephine, then why *didn't* he? Why are you letting OOC feelings get in the way of IC reactions? Let me fight for my survival ICly instead of basing your decision on OOC beliefs.

Now, I'm not saying to suddenly pop out of the bushes and Finger of Death someone (you can do that if it really comes to it, but better to get RP out of the situation first before the night you finally do the final kill), but if your character wants to kill someone off then don't suppress those feelings because OOCly you don't want to, work towards it ICly. It can lead to good RP and drama, and doesn't necessarily lead to a fatal end in all instances, depending on how the to-be-killed character reacts.

1) It's nothing to do with Gender... not sure why you brought that up.

2) You ask "Why didn't he?"... the only reason is because the server rules mean that I couldn't do so without more reason than "I hate her because of X". If I didn't need more than that reason, I'd have done so. Seriously, it would have been easy and if the server rules didnt prevent it then Mala would have done it. The reason is purely because of the current rules in place. I think that's a good thing. I think Josephine is a good character, but if your take on the PvP rules were implemented I can guarantee you'd never have had the chance to develop her. And if you're planning on saying "that's an OOC decision"... a) of course it is, and b) The alternative is not a possibility with the current rules (which I support)

3) You place the emphasis on the RP aspects of permadeath... yes! I agree, but that requires conflict which is ongoing and the participation (and ultimatley consent) of all sides. Not some built in game mechanic (and I know your distaste for those).

[Edit] Just to be a bit clearer

If Malaclypse actually wanted to kill Josephine, then why *didn't* he?

Because the server rules wouldn't let me... that's the only thing which lets alot of PCs actually survive the fact that there are people who have more lvlzorz than them.

[Rhifox]

I'd just like to make a point here to all these guys who love to talk about permadeath... The point of playing your character isn't to get permadeathed. ((HOHO Deepshades is so smart!!))

Its to enjoy and adventure.. share feelings with other players... develop your character dynamically.. not to stick to some static character plot of taking x and saying x and then hohoho! someone perm'd my character well that was great fun.

Thats mindless dribble to me. Your character who has lived for maybe hundreds of years isn't supposed to show up in sundren and die within the first year. Now I'm not saying that its not a possibility. Just remember that permadeath is a total reset button. Not a make an alt button but its like taking your favorite painting or child and ripping it up.

I think perma'death is important but I see people talking about it like its supposed to be a common thing. Its NOT. Redeveloping character relationships with other players is a LONG and sometimes draining process that eventually leads to deep connections. Permadeath screws this all up

Its a serious outcome. The DMs don't want to deal with perma killing lvl 5s all day who are the real RPlers and the grinders who just run off and don't talk to anyone or do anything other than just try to get xp. (Which will most likely NOT lead to a PVP permadeath.)

Then you clearly don't understand the point of permadeath.

The point is NOT to go out and get killed. The point is to have the possibility, and to play your character realistically based on the possibility that it can happen.

Wanting permadeath is all about wanting the possibility that it can happen, NOT having it happen every day. And if you think it happens everyday, then you have either A) not played on a permadeath server, or B) played on a permadeath server that only had idiot RPers on it.


I know exactly how permadeath works, and I'm tired of these accusations that I'm asking for it without knowing what I'm talking about. Having permadeath makes things more fun, it helps to (but not completely) remove these idiot heroes and martyrs that are willing to throw their lives away recklessly because they OOCly know they can't be killed.


If your character gets permaed on the first day then you're doing something wrong. The problem with permadeath isn't permadeath itself, it's idiot RPers doing stupid things and then whining and moaning when they are forced to face the consequences of their stupidity. Even on permadeath-enforced servers, the only people that die often are the idiots. It is NOT as often as people might think, unless the server is populated by RPers who are wantingly trying to get themselves killed.

[Rhifox]

1) It's nothing to do with Gender... not sure why you brought that up.

I brought it up because Blue_Wyrm made the same argument on the Gender discussion... that he wouldn't have his character do something lude to a female character out of fear of the character's RL gender... in other words, letting OOC feelings disrupt what his character would want to do ICly.

Which is my same issue here... using OOC feelings to prevent IC reactions.

2) You ask "Why didn't he?"... the only reason is because the server rules mean that I couldn't do so without more reason than "I hate her because of X". If I didn't need more than that reason, I'd have done so. Seriously, it would have been easy and if the server rules didnt prevent it then Mala would have done it. The reason is purely because of the current rules in place. I think that's a good thing. I think Josephine is a good character, but if your take on the PvP rules were implemented I can guarantee you'd never have had the chance to develop her. And if you're planning on saying "that's an OOC decision"... a) of course it is, and b) The alternative is not a possibility with the current rules (which I support)

I know I'll get in trouble with this but I'll say don't follow the server rules if they're going to disrupt RP. If you have consent, then that's enough reason, IMO, and consent requires simply sending a tell asking the person if your reason is good enough. If Mal wanted to kill her because of whatever reason he has then I'd have been okay with that, it was enough reason for me. I believe consent should be the main rule, other rules should be in place to prevent random killing but consent should bypass the other rules.

As far as not having the chance to develop her, that assumes that I wouldn't have been able to work my way out of it.

[Satoshi]

Personally, I think all of this is 'tarded. I'm no fan of death penalities at all, especially losing experience/time/levels - with the notable exception being in a decisive player against player match where the intended outcome is death (which is why Zharen is dead, and Hlaine is not). I've always thought that experience losses/stat penalties on death are stupid because it simply makes you grind harder and longer. Thus why it is a common ploy used in MMOs that charge you monthly and need a reason for you to spend more time doing just that.

Honestly, I don't understand why everyone wants penalities put on themselves, especially since once they are put into place, you're all going to complain about the losses and/or grind extra hard to counteract them. I'd much rather just enjoy the game, some roleplaying, some character development, and not have to deal with the bullshit mechanics there to arbitrarly police development and advancement.

[deepshades]

Ditto..