Right-click, examine, "I pwn you dud3"

[Aux]

A grumble at metagaming...
Okay so you can right click and examine, we all do it, but then to be told in an IC conversation that your not as skilled, or you would die in the places where i tread etc etc really gets my goat.. and i havnt even got a goat (though i do have a dog and several chickens). Obvious metagaming but an easy rp faux-pas to make. Ive had both my pc's told things along this line when amongst a fireside gathering. One of them will not forget it

Peace

[GodBeastX]

If it's a matter of partying for dungeon crawling, I'd say you shouldn't get too annoyed by this. We like parties to be within 5 levels of each other, so people sort of bring this into IC with examine, which is probably not a good idea.

If, however, the party level adjustment due to being 5 levels below the highest member is a problem, we will of course re-evaluate it. When we instituted it, the experience was more variable.

[Aux]

Yeah that i understand of course, but its during casual conversation, not party forming... wasnt trying to get in on the action because id already right clicked and examined and realised they were much higher level

Its a gripe ive had with nwn1 PW playing too, nothing personal here.

[Scourn]

Hmm...isnt there a skill you can use to kind of get the feel of someone? Might not be in nwn2 though...or at all..hmm.

I right click people all the time. New face its the first thing I do. See if they have a little story or anything interesting for me to maybe spot ect. But im sure we are all guilty for eyeing their challenge rating first, I look out of habit. Sometimes its hard to not have it play some influence on how your character acts around say person. In a sence it kind of saves you from doing something dumb. Like when I first saw Gen'Demios, I looked saw "Impossible" so i figure, hey this guy is probably really powerful. Couldnt really help it. Which was later proven with the skeleton .

I know ive read some old old subject on the forums about removing the ability to see what the CR is on PCs. Was that stopped or didn?t work? I think it would be great to just have everyone not rated or have all PCs just say "Effortless" regardless of lvl difference.

[Aux]

Aye i agree, no rating or n/a rating would be sweet, and yes i examine all the time, partly 'cos im a forgetful old dog.

[Raksha]

First bit: No CR on PCs would be teh awesome. I have been in favor of this ever since it was first suggested.

Second bit: Often, a character will make a suggestion not based on the metagaming CR, but from other cues that can be found in-character. For instance, the lack of a Cloak of Fortification, use of inferior banded mail, etc. et. al can often be used by characters as a way of evaluating someone's strength. More than once, Tamara has given the condescending "be careful" speech to a DM NPC that didn't look especially powerful, but conned as impossible.

[Kendaric]

Second bit: Often, a character will make a suggestion not based on the metagaming CR, but from other cues that can be found in-character. For instance, the lack of a Cloak of Fortification, use of inferior banded mail, etc. et. al can often be used by characters as a way of evaluating someone's strength. More than once, Tamara has given the condescending "be careful" speech to a DM NPC that didn't look especially powerful, but conned as impossible.

Though that is somewhat metagaming as well... after all seeing someone wearing a blue cloak doesn't automatically imply that person's wearing a cloak of fortification (I really hope we get mundane cloaks in different colors, just to get around that issue ).

I do agree however that removing the visible CR from players (and NPCs/creatures) would be a good thing to reduce the 'level-based' metagaming.

[Warfire]

This is what I do for Jaus.

Whenever he meets someone he always does an Appraise check to get a feel for the person and basically make first-glance assumptions. Maybe if there was a way to script an Appraise check (or something akin) on examining a person to determine how powerful they are or something.

You fail the check, they all look Impossible or N/A
You get within 5 of the check you get a decent feeling.
You get 10 within the check, you have a vague category.
You get the check or above, you can get the "Moderate" or "Challenging" thing.

Just an idea.

[Felnak]

A grumble at metagaming...
Okay so you can right click and examine, we all do it, but then to be told in an IC conversation that your not as skilled, or you would die in the places where i tread etc etc really gets my goat.. and i havnt even got a goat (though i do have a dog and several chickens). Obvious metagaming but an easy rp faux-pas to make. Ive had both my pc's told things along this line when amongst a fireside gathering. One of them will not forget it

Peace

Unlike many of the responders to this thread, I do not mind having the character rating show up on a right click and examine. I believe that characters should have some chance of determining that another character is of superior or inferior strength. At present, this seems to be the only realistic option at a glance.

However, when a player sends you a tell stating what you have said, that is poor judgement and bad behavior. In contrast to many players, I have a strict code that valid RP will NOT result from bad player behavior. If you believe it is valid, then your character can harbor some ill feelings toward the offending character. Otherwise, I would chuck it out with the garbage for the week.

[Felnak]

Though that is somewhat metagaming as well... after all seeing someone wearing a blue cloak doesn't automatically imply that person's wearing a cloak of fortification (I really hope we get mundane cloaks in different colors, just to get around that issue ).

I do agree however that removing the visible CR from players (and NPCs/creatures) would be a good thing to reduce the 'level-based' metagaming.

This is a whole can of worms but I tend to agree with you on the Cloak of Fortification, since in a "real world" setting, more variation of cloaks would abound.

[Ash]

Deciding whether you're going to proceed with PvP should have absolutely nothing to do with the challenge assessment available from right click/examine. Proceeding with PvP because you determine that you can "have 'em" is griefing.

Intimidation, bullying, threats and the like should be based on a roleplayed assessment, and should not be based on a game mechanic.

[GodBeastX]

Meh, if someone has the lore and some item is clearly visible, are you saying they can't figure out what armor it is? C'mon.

Also, we can't remove CR from people without removing CR from creatures, without making a custom UI for it.

Personally, if people are afraid of being metagamed and their CR being discovered, and this makes them worry they'll get beat up, then that's better to me than some of the people who don't consider ANYTHING about their opponents and talk alot of crap, then get beat up, then talk more crap, then wind up dead. I wonder if not seeing CR would stop that or make it worse? Because that's alot more widespread.

[Fajitaduke]

I find CR useful for putting together parties that have the right relative power levels to keep things challenging and allow everyone to participate.

I do agree that use of CR for metagming bully tactics is annoying, but I haven't seen it happen that often. Far more common is the more subtle annoyance of people who think of CR as a proxy for RP ability.

EDIT - both of these latter observations are given with respect to NWN and NWN2 servers in general, I haven't played on Sundren enough to have encountered either here.

[Kaybrie]

Hmm...isnt there a skill you can use to kind of get the feel of someone? Might not be in nwn2 though...or at all..hmm.

Sense motive, it's a skill more specifically used in Iaijutsu duels within the oriental adventures campaign setting... Like most DM's out there, I thought it was stupid, it takes away from the feeling of smallness or alternatively mightiness of a character, be they high or low level characters. And even when applied in game, I still hate it because whether or not its in character it still feels way too much like metagaming...

And I personally make it good habit simply not to examine others, it influences my roleplaying, if even in subtle ways, and I don't personally like that.

[Aux]

Also, we can't remove CR from people without removing CR from creatures, without making a custom UI for it.

Personally, if people are afraid of being metagamed and their CR being discovered, and this makes them worry they'll get beat up, then that's better to me than some of the people who don't consider ANYTHING about their opponents and talk alot of crap, then get beat up, then talk more crap, then wind up dead. I wonder if not seeing CR would stop that or make it worse? Because that's alot more widespread.

Fair enough, leave it be then, it does go both ways eh... i metagame when i examine an encountered monster and it shows as overpowering... uh-oh better go elsewhere as i dont want my pc getting slaughtered again etc.

Bullying, trash talking, and PvP challenges are a different matter alltogether, and their are rules and etiquette for such behaviour. Probably would be worse not seeing CR in truth. But as far as some nice rp goes it can be a pain, another pc can assume too much from a simple ooc CR, and it goes both ways with tacky bio's.. 'You feel a slight shudder of fear when in this half-elves presence, his cold eyes pierce into your very soul. Once a powerful archmage, now a ... yadda yadda yadda..' 'Hang on, no i dont..' your thinking, '..thats a level 3 mage whos just joined....'.