Question: Power-gaming?

[Ouroboros]

If you don't know what powergaming is, it is a style of play where you make your character overpowered to absolutely rule their class. i.e. Having a Fighter of sub intelligence, clumbsy as a Sloth, Charasmatic as a mouldy toenail, as wise as a drunken sailor, but is an immoveable tank that can drink a drunken sailor under the table and can snap a sword in two. Is that really realistic? Probabally not. And skills. You say your character has a history of growing up with wizards, but yet to be seen is a single point in Spellcraft and Use Magic device because that doesn't suit you super offensive Rogue.

My question is, what is the official policy on this type of Character style and if there isn't one, what is the general expectaion of the players? Personally, i am going to try to avoid it, but i also don't want to be disadvantaged because a sacrificed some crucial skills and abilities to keep my Character "in character".

[Saulus]

For blatently conflicting ability scores to roleplay there may be xp deductions if a DM catches you doing so.

Common sense applies.

[Esteten]

I always thought that people tried to stay in characters, even when creating them, which would lead to "Damn I can't have 18 str and 16 con, since I need more in the personality abilities (int, wis, cha).
And for skills, isn't it logical that a character with alot of charisma might have atleast some points in bluff, intimidate, diplomacy?

[Peridan]

Well, they do get the bonuses from the charisma in those certain skills, right?.....

[Felnak]

I always thought that people tried to stay in characters, even when creating them, which would lead to "Damn I can't have 18 str and 16 con, since I need more in the personality abilities (int, wis, cha).
And for skills, isn't it logical that a character with alot of charisma might have atleast some points in bluff, intimidate, diplomacy?

Right, I am thinking in character when I make a char. I prefer a fighter type (or occasionally a monk) so I am pushing strength and constitution. However, I detest playing a Fighter with quite low Int, Wis and Cha. I prefer at least a 10-14 Int and 8-10 Wis and 8-12 Cha. As a result, my starting strenghth is not maximized, but I have a char that I personally can play more realistically in character.

[Satoshi]

Typically, I build a character around their statistics. If I think my character is going to have a high strength and constitution because he was raised as a larger than average farm-boy who was worked from sun-up to sun down, I'm thinking he's going to be a fighter. Then, I flesh out the story with appropriate skills - no real lore to speak of, some diplomacy since he's a down-to-earth, frank sort, maybe some craft weapon because he's had to repair and reforge some of his father's (or his own) gear, etc. I build the story around the character's abilities, rather than try to squeeze the character into the story: it always seems to work much better for me.

[Vuzantar]

Another question is how do people use Feats as well. There are several "trait" feats that sometimes powergamers wouldn't get... I've chosen stealthy for my cleric... its that +2 really going to help? probably not but it adds to his background/lore.

But yeah... I think skills and stats should mirror your actions somewhat. Remember, if you are presented with a challenge and you dont know how your character might react... you can roll on your stat/skill.

[Raksha]

The nature of DnD is, unfortunately, that Feats are very important and you don't get many, so it's not a good idea to "waste" them. Depends on the definition of waste, though, and of course you're playing a cleric so you'll be fine anyhow. ^_^;

Especially as far as mental primary attributes go, there are a lot of ways to play even the very same set of statistics. For instance, a fighter with INT 14, WIS 12 or CHA 8 might be a canny combatant with a good eye for sizing up his enemies, but prone to be excessively gruff and rude. Or a wizard might be an apprentice who is eager to learn everything but stumbles over his words and can't deal with women.

I also want to stick in a caution here against "roll-playing". Ever since the advent of DMFI there have been players who have found it necessary to spam rolls of every sort to "prove" their character's stats and background, and while there's an argument for this, I find it distracting and unrealistic. Especially when it comes to primary attributes, ability checks are almost completely random and your modifier has very little bearing on the outcome. Take a fighter with 20 STR and a +5 modifier, and then a common housewife of 10 STR and a +0 modifier. On a d20 attribute roll, the housewife still has about a 25% chance of getting an equal or higher strength check result, and that's just -stupid-. 20 STR is amazingly stupidly strong.

[Myrddin]

But yeah... I think skills and stats should mirror your actions somewhat. Remember, if you are presented with a challenge and you dont know how your character might react... you can roll on your stat/skill.

It depends on how you are playing those Skills and Feats. There are skills, such as Intimidate for example, that are used when interacting with NPC?s and DM run NPC?s, but useless as teats on a bull against PC?s. Why, because players are allowed to interpret the actions of their PC?s with other PC?s without the use of Dice rolls. Why, because if it wasn?t we would have everyone rolling for skill and feat checks for every possible player interaction. You would be dictating player?s actions and moving from Role-Play to ROLL-PLAY, and I don?t think you want anyone telling you have to play your character, Do You?

[Vuzantar]

Its there as an option... please don't take that post as an absolute. Obviously, you can RP anyway you want... rolling the dice just might make things interesting or boring depending on your view. Its all up to the player and their RP. I'm seen some good free form RP adding in dice rolls and I've seen some narrow RP without dice rolls where the player "knew all and seen all" which included invisible people... but all this goes back to the original topic of how people RP their character.

EDIT: Also, I find dicerolling might help with chaotic type players... or slightly insane. But yes, "roll-playing" 100% of the time isn't creative.

[GodBeastX]

Let's not turn a question about power-gaming into a discussion of when to roll dice. Roll them whenever you want, I certainly am not going to punish people who roll charisma when trying to charm someone

Now, power-gaming, what's the rules? RP YOUR STATS!~!~1~1

If you are a fighter with 20 str, 8 int, 8 wis, 8 charisma, you're likely going to be the village retarded child that everyone calls "Special". I don't think people realize just how bad 8's are I see people picking 8's sometimes and totally not RP'ing them. Here's a few guidelines I usually stick out there. Guidelines aren't rules. Part of picking stats and RP'ing them is to come up with your own twist. However, an 8 should ALWAYS be a hinderance to your character.

Charisma being the big one. If you have 8 charisma and aren't sure how to RP it, think of a person you don't like, not because of their alignment, but just because of "them" and RP that person. It may be because of looks, or it may be because of "People skills" but charisma is so many things. You just are a social idiot, and people don't want you around. You rub them the wrong way. You say the wrong things. I've personally felt charisma is the hardest one to play, because anything you'd technically do with charisma for social I think falls more under int or wis. It, to me, almost feels like "Luck" applied to others and magic. However, I won't debate D&D mechanics, it's what we're stuck with

Wisdom, well, I like to think of Wisdom as one's grip of reality or perception and such. So when this is low, you're pretty much insane or brain farted, wierd, totally not normal. Players should be able to pick up on this. Probably very gullible too.

Intelligence, do I really have to explain? Your brain is like silly putty and you've spoken common your whole like, but still don't does it right.

Constitution, you get sickly, you're flimsy, probably bruise easily, hemopheliac, first one to catch a cold, etc etc. Hell, you might have a lifetime disease!

Dexterity, you've got the mobility of a three year old. When you throw baseballs, they never go the direction you want. If you tried to do gymnastics, you'd probably break your neck. If you walk down the street, you'll probably twist your ankle because your rotated your foot and stepped on the side. You've got the slowest imaginable reaction time too. You might as well, be living in the past with your reaction time. Etc etc.

Strength, you're the one who needs someone else to open all your jars. You embarrass yourself when you pickup a greatsword and fall over backwards. You've got to lift your legs with you arms and move at the speed of a turtle in fullplate. When it comes to carrying your friends back for help when they die, get someone else to do it. Etc Etc.

STR rolls are probably the only roll that bugs me, because people often use them, not in contest, but in situations where they have to pick something up. A STR of 8 person has a maximum weight they can pick up, and rolling a 19 doesn't make it easier. Did you roll STR when you picked up coins? Or green items off a dead body? So why would you suddenly start rolling when you try to lift someone off the ground like you are going to suddenly get stronger? If you've got 20 STR, picking up an average weight person is easy. If you've got 8, get someone else to do it because you've pulled a muscle in your back. IF you've got 30, you can pick him up and throw them across the room like a sack of potatoes (mmmmm, potatoes).

Anyway, the point is to RP your stats.

[Myrddin]

Its there as an option... please don't take that post as an absolute. Obviously, you can RP anyway you want... rolling the dice just might make things interesting or boring depending on your view. Its all up to the player and their RP. I'm seen some good free form RP adding in dice rolls and I've seen some narrow RP without dice rolls where the player "knew all and seen all" which included invisible people... but all this goes back to the original topic of how people RP their character.

EDIT: Also, I find dicerolling might help with chaotic type players... or slightly insane. But yes, "roll-playing" 100% of the time isn't creative.

You do bring up a good point, more so with your example. But, my point was in situations that where one player thinks his or her character is the top bull on the block is nothing more than that player's opinion, and no one should have to be made to roll on whether or not they are intimidated. That is a player?s individual choice, as is the choice to roll for it. A character may be intimidated, but choice not to show it, or allow it to dictate the character?s actions.

As for your example, now that I would call Power-gaming, even if the character in question has cast something like True Sight. If you?re not looking in the direction of the character or NPC, you are NOT going to see him, her or them.

For what is may be worth, my personal definition of power-gaming is as follows. Power-gaming: where a player?s character is built and equipped to exploit the flaws of NWN 2 and those Persistent World campaign module design staff in order to maximize that character?s ability to advance to the highest attainable level in the minimum amount of time necessary without thought to role-playing or the rest of the player community for no other reason than to be the highest level character or one of the highest level characters in a Persistent World campaign module, under the misconception that to he or she must be the highest level possible before he or she can role-play the character in question. Therefore, if a character is created with low wisdom to have high strength and/or constitution scores, you role-play your character accordingly. If not, then you are power-gaming, imho.

[Satoshi]

As an after-thought to GodBeast's post, I've decided to give everyone an idea of actual statistics on those stats. Ten is the assumed stat of an average human, of course, so I'll list alternatives to give comparisons.

Str 8 - Badger
Str 10 - Dire Rat
Str 16 - Large Shark
Str 18 - Minotaur

Dex 8 - Ogre/Basilisk
Dex10 - Boar
Dex 16 - Wraith/Lion
Dex 18 - Astral Deva (angel)

Con 8 - Centipede swarm
Con 10 - Imp
Con 16 - Tiger/Chimera
Con 18 - Polar Bear/Umber Hulk

Int 8 - Gnoll, Troglodyte
Int 10 - Bugbear/Night Hag
Int 16 - Succubus/Trumpet Archon
Int 18 - Mind Flayer (Illithid)

Wis 8 - Troll
Wis 10 - Lizardfolk
Wis 16 - Androsphinx
Wis 18 - Couatl/Erinyes

Cha 8 - Gorgon/Gnoll
Cha 10 - Wolverine
Cha 16 - Pixie/Harpy
Cha 18 - Nixie
Cha 20 - Astral Deva (angel)

So, the underlying idea is that one point is a tramatic difference in the score as a whole. I remember reading somewhere (perhaps back in second edition, as I can't find it anywhere in the 3.5 PHB) that each numerical value was roughly twice as good as the last. (ie: an 11 str is twice as good as a 10, etc) The above chart seems to give that idea some credibility, as well. Just my perspective.

[Vuzantar]

You do bring up a good point, more so with your example. But, my point was in situations that where one player thinks his or her character is the top bull on the block is nothing more than that player's opinion, and no one should have to be made to roll on whether or not they are intimidated. That is a player?s individual choice, as is the choice to roll for it.

I totally agree... that is a poor use of "roll-playing". Noone should be made to do something with their character.

[Dragoncleric]

OK I know this isn't a direct topic about dice rolling, but it's been brought up too mnay times now for me to ignore:
Why dio I do this? Because I hate 'defined stats'. To me the've always been thresholds, similar to what you might find in say 'Serenity Role-play', or 'Savage-Worlds'
You know Reall Life, where sometimes people can do the oddest things under extreme stress (like lift a car to rescue a child, even though they are a 120 lb women, or suddenly or the genius suddenly forgetting how to chemically bond two isotopes, because he's got swaety palms over a cute girl?)

In other words, your ststs don't make you 'better' or worse'' overall. Some fo the most memorable people are ones who thow flawed, made them work. Even superman fails his rolls sometimes, and even that dumb redneck gets the hot women on a date.

So to me, it simply illiviates any meta-gaming, I roll for things that really woud be 'tests'. (For instance just because I have a 14 Int, doesn't mean I know everything about the surface world. I'm a Deep Gnome. I know more about the under obviously!)

Too add more fule to the fire: Angels can fall from grace. devils may keep thier word, don't let stats rule you. That has and will always be my creedo. I f you think it's useless for me to make tests, sorry but you don't get why D&D is being changed to 4th Ed now, and why some systems keep all of this streamlined and simple: All the Str in the world couldn't save you, if you have a bad day of luck.

And yes, for the ecord, I'm chaotic neutral. I tend to go wherever I feel like it. Dice rolls keep me in line, and prevent me, the player, from meta-gaming my character. I hate meta-gaming more then mere power-gaming. In some cases they collide. (why don't I roll to pick up a coin? it's not a test to do so. Difficulty ratings remember them? The Dm would always tell us to roll the dice when trying out something that has a higher DC, because of stats, or the test being outside the normal.)

Right my rule on gaming: Think about it first. I tend to keep my characters average, and base them around thier skills and past, along with upbrining, and other hon physical descriptions. (My deep Gnome has no social skills traied because he's nevr needed them in the underdark. Hence his 'crudeness', even with a curent 12 cha which will rise). Her's like the Rogue from Order of thr Stick, or Jayne from Firefly/Serenity.

So, all-in-all: I play a person, D&D doesn't give you any f'laws' beyond limited skill sets, and attributes that could be low. So for me to keep frommeta-gaming or power gaming, I set my own limits.
Valen just wouldn't be memorable if he didn't speak his mind so openly (lack of social skills), or have the occaisonal bad day, or good day. I bet you that dragon with the Cha score of 18, won't always get along with another dragon. Personality comes into play, and sometimes they may be bad at socal skills anyways!

Sorry this is long, in fact I could make a thesis on this if I really wanted to. Sounds like I'm trying to defend why I roll on things (because yes i started the trend and people found it annoying) But But I need to know how I'm doing sometimes, and stats aren't absolute. Just thresholds.
D&D doesn't do a good job with that, (especially in combat, but even good warriors roll a 1, it just doesnt do anything bad like real PnP!)

And godbeast, you'd be surprised how many times that D8 Int moron can come up with the simplest, yet workale idea, if he's at the top of his game. he may have some high ranks in int skills, even with the -1 hinderance.

Never ever, let your stats tell you how bad, or how good you are. It's only giving you better odds with the dice. Even the ugly get lucky sometimes...they might have money, or other enticements to compensate.

Just think outside the box.