Death in the realms - an NPC perspective

[Grand Unified Theory]

I've often wondered how NPC's view death in the Forgotten Realms, considering the unbelievable power wielded by clerics.

Perhaps more specifically, I'm curious as to whether death is just a 'revolving door' for NPC's as much as it is for PC's. Why fret over a tragic death in the family when you could just bring your puppy/grandma/son's corpse to a nearby temple, pay a load of gold, and essentially cheat death? Seems like a wealthy family could do this for a ridiculously lengthy period of time.

If this is untrue or not possible, then what exactly are the specifications necessary to bring someone back using Resurrect/True Ressurect? Could you do it 20.. 30.. 4,000,000,000 times over, as long as you had the requisite funds?

[Sparkie]

Note: If anyone knows more than I do on this particular subject, feel free to correct me.

Well, for me to give my perspective on this, I'd first need to bring up the topic of how wealth goes in Faerun, because, in my experience, it's much different than how things are depicted in Sundren as of now. Right now, I think the ratio of gp in game and gp in a pnp game or the realms in general is about one hundred stags (sundren gold piece) to one gold piece, with the ease with which one can get money right now (not that I'm complaining, mind you).

So, with that in mind, a gold piece is actually a good bit of money. It is worth to one hundred copper pieces, ten silver pieces, two electrum pieces and a tenth of a platinum piece. Let's say you as an adventurer went into a bath house in Waterdeep in one of the commoner districts and handed the front desk a gold piece, you'd get the premium package, meaning everything from getting scrubbed down, massaged, fed, drinks a plenty, and probably even a happy ending. But, this is simply the most current example I've seen, and it was in 5th edition, though I'm not entirely sure that it would change the relative value of a gold piece.

Most commoners wouldn't have much gold, if any, most likely doing daily dealings in coppers and silvers, keeping gold in the house in case of emergencies, or they had to go out and make a major purchase. But they wouldn't normally have enough to pay for the sorts of spells that could bring someone back to life, and probably wouldn't know an actual Cleric with a high enough level to perform such a rite as bring a dead person back to life.

The normal amount the we see Clerics in Sundren asking for when it comes to resurrecting someone is about 800 gold. However, the following is what is required for the spell Raise Dead (a step down from Resurrection) to be cast:
Material Component: Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp.*
And here's what required for Resurrection, the spell that fits the effects seen when actually getting them seen to by a Cleric in game.
Material Component: A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 10,000 gp.*

So, even a noble family would have a hard time coughing those up just to get one of their own seen to. They may be rich, but dropping, at minimum, 5000 gold on someone, presuming that you can find someone to do it within a day of their death and they haven't died of old age, seeing as Raise Dead is a CL 5 spell and Resurrection a CL 7 spell.

In summary, many of Sundren's PC's a pretty rich compared to the average person not in Sundren, and getting someone seen to isn't just hard, it costs a ton, too.

So, your average Joe Citizen isn't going to be able to get his family rezzed when they die in an orcish raid, therefore sending them on their quest to rid the world of orcs, becoming Joe the Ranger, and Sir Jimmy of house Richguy isn't likely to go out and get Grandpa Richguy seen to, or Mrs. Richguy seen to either.

*Retrieved from dandwiki.com

[Kaybrie]

Adding onto Sparkie's point about currency being inflated on Sundren, I'd also point out that level's tend towards this as well. Accounting for the fact that level 11 clerics aren't exactly in every temple, heck some of the most powerful, well known characters in forgotten realms are only level 15, most of the highest, most revered priests are barely level 20. Fzoul comes to mind, the single most powerful banite priest in Faerun (Who was later elevated to the status of a divine exarch), only level 19. The only characters who really make it into epic are literal or pseudo-immortals who are hundreds, or thousands of years old.

So chances are, to find a cleric who was able to resurrect the dead party, you'd be going on a journey. And even then, you'd be specifically looking for a cleric who was able to do it, and willing to do so/saw it in their gods best interests (Even with the coin, a cleric isn't going to resurrect just anyone.) While taking the risk that the person wasn't happy in their afterlife. What if the family member died and was actually enjoying their time at their gods side? Does your even wealthy family have the coin to drop to bring back someone who might not even really want to come back, thus negating the spell entirely (The cost is still there regardless)

Death for the overwhelming majority of people in the forgotten realms, is honestly just as permanent a thing as it is in real life. When someone dies, you mourn and move on.

[Fateful Encounter]

Yes. Death is not a revolving door. When you die mechanically in the game, treat it as though you were brought to death's door, but did not die, whether you respawned or received a raise.

Death is a necessity in terms of game mechanics in order for there to be an actual challenge, but for RP, there's nothing more jarring or immersion-breaking than hearing somebody say, "Oh, I died but I came back to life. Just another Tuesday."

[Kitsunestume]

Another intersting portion to consider (beyond the whole "More than your entire lifetime worth of money required" for most NPCs), is that divine spells are requests. Arcane magic is twisting the weave into doing what you want, but divine magic is asking for a deity to grant you a boon, or do something on your behalf (hence why there are no arcane resurrections). Even if a noble house could afford it, the question is if the deities will permit it: a god has no requirement to grant it's boon simply because you can keep chucking money at their archbishop.

Secondly, you end up with other issues, like the sentinels of death. Marut Inevitables in 3.5 and onwards, and Vanth Psychopomps in Pathfinder are both examples of things that will find you and bring you back to being dead. I'm sure other settings have similar issues, but simply having a deity bring you back wont stop death from trying to get you. Either it might get expensive, or the reapers will simply learn your address.

[edit:] On a similar note, if we are talking about rich noble houses. . . How many times to the kids actually want grampa-in-charge-of-all-the-money hanging around anyway? If he croaks over breakfast, you get to inherit! I'm sure most of the Sundren Nobility can think of better things to do with 5,000/10,000/25,000 stags than lose the rest of the inheritance.

[gamestarmike]

I like to think of sundren as a daily Legion of Doom verses Justice League saturday morning cartoon where everything starts off ok but then the good and bad overpowered heroes run around ruining everything with long drawn out, over used theory's of morality in between battles and then after all the fighting and forced resolutions, it ends(reset) Then all the good/bad men that were jailed/killed are retconed back to us for next saturdays episode! Tune in at 1am est. for an all new episode!

There is a reason the Emperor is still in power, its because there are so many pro level 20 clerics to hire in the valley because you gotta be a super hero to survive in this valley. (or because hes a secret vampire lord named colibrus-chan (m. night plot intensifies))

So your theory of "can money buy happiness and eternal life?" Yeah, but only in make believe land that isn't canon from forgotten realms.

Edit: This picture was fun "making"

[Grand Unified Theory]

Good thoughts, all. Let me provide a small rebuttal.

I remember playing Baldur's Gate 1/2 back in the early 2000's. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm 99.976% sure that those games take place within the Forgotten Realms and Faerun.

Literally *every* city you go to has a temple, in which you can pay for a resurrection for.. what.. 500g, maybe? The argument for a commoner NPC using coppers and silver instead of gold makes sense, but what about NPC adventurers? The most green wanna-be fighter could assault a goblin stronghold with some buddies and come out on top with that much currency, maybe more.

Another intersting portion to consider (beyond the whole "More than your entire lifetime worth of money required" for most NPCs), is that divine spells are requests. Arcane magic is twisting the weave into doing what you want, but divine magic is asking for a deity to grant you a boon, or do something on your behalf (hence why there are no arcane resurrections). Even if a noble house could afford it, the question is if the deities will permit it: a god has no requirement to grant it's boon simply because you can keep chucking money at their archbishop.

This was a great explanation, Kit. However - wouldn't a deity be pleased with their church making a shite-ton of money off of someone trying to avoid death? I mean, c'mon.. you can't tell me that the Triad wouldn't appreciate a giant mega-church with all the trimmings. (Or any other religious group for that matter, I suppose.)

[Memnoch1962]

Don't confuse computer game mechanics with the intent of the PnP game. Sparkie, EF and the others gave a pretty good description of the differences. Gods probably wouldn't give a tinkers damn about gold, but it would be the god that would grant the divine spell to the almost unheard of cleric that has the power to cast the spell of raise dead or ressurection to begin with.

To put it in real world pespective.. Finding a priest with the ability to cast the required spell to bring the dead back to life would be almost like someone in real life being able to have access to the President of the United States or the Queen of England to sit down and have a chat about international security. Assuming you could even see them its highly unlikely that they are going to talk to you.

They wouldn't care if you arrived with 1000 dollars or 1000 pounds. It makes little difference to them.

[Fuzziebunny]

- wouldn't a deity be pleased with their church making a shite-ton of money off of someone trying to avoid death? I mean, c'mon.. you can't tell me that the Triad wouldn't appreciate a giant mega-church with all the trimmings. (Or any other religious group for that matter, I suppose.)

I am not sure if deity's care so much about money. Some might, but from what I have read... most of them don't care and a few deities don't even have church's so to speak. I think if anyone would care about a mega church, it would be the priest.

[Fateful Encounter]

Memnoch makes a good point. Just because a game mechanic lets you "resurrect" for a comparatively minor fee, that does not reflect how death should be viewed from an in-character perspective. The games allow you to respawn from death because it's a game; the game makers want you to keep playing, not weep over your dead characters. Sundren is the same; death is part of the game mechanics. Characters "die" mechanically, but to allow players to keep playing, mechanically there has to be a means for them to come back.

On Sundren, do not treat Death as a revolving door while in character. Death is not something to be taken lightly by PCs or NPCs. Call it severely wounded, call it brought to death's door, call it hanging onto life by a thread ... just don't RP that you died and came back to life willy nilly like it's no big deal.

It cuts the legs out of storytelling for death to mean no more than having to dip into your checking account.

So, in answer to the OP ... NPCs in Sundren view death as any normal, sane person in real life does.

[Mournas]

I'm pretty sure there are some pretty serious optional rules / penalties for any of your characters that die in the tabletop game. I'm more familiar with 2nd edition Lore as it's more to my flavor. As Kasso states, 15th level is exceptionally high for a person to be in the Realms. In 2nd Edition each level to a class gained an unofficial title on obtaining 9th level your character achieved what was known as Name Level (the level where your title fits the name of the class), as in you're basically famous for being amazing and generally recognized as suitable for Lordship / High Priest / Guild Master etc etc. That's at ... what most people feel is ultra low 9th level "lowbie".

[Doubtful]

Yeah, games are a terrible benchmark for how the game setting is.

Of course, that's further varied by the fact that every player, DM and everyone who even looks at it has a different interpretation.

Sundren aims to err toward the 'Death is Serious' end of the spectrum, we ask our players to take actual death seriously and treat casual 'death' in-game as being injured, knocked out, panicking and running away or whatever other non-crazy version of not-actually-dying they choose (so long as it obeys the set rules on what happens when you're 'killed').

While it may seem slightly contradictory at first you need to realise that it all stems from the need for fun. For example, in my PnP group we take death seriously, you die and there's no coming back from the other side, but as it's a PnP game we can fudge rolls and shuck things aside so that while perma-death is a threat it's unlikely to really happen as anything other than as a consequence of an act of stupidity (probably why there's still a high rate of attrition among our groups characters).

However, here in digital land we don't have the luxury of being able to fudge rolls, talk things out or do things the friendly way. We've all had the bad luck streak that's sent strong characters to the fugue, or seen the miss-click that's accidentally gotten friends or yourself killed, if we didn't have some kind of death system then that'd be it. Game over, time to re-roll.

Of course, there's always the roguelike option, death is death for everyone and no coming back. That's great, honestly I love myself a good roguelike. FTL is a game I'm always happy to play because the way it's designed means that the risk of failure is a huge part of the fun, Dungeon of the Endless is much the same, enjoyable and challenging. But, what's the investment in these, and many rogue-style games? It's largely minimal, you make a selection then have a game that generally lasts an couple of hours to a full evening to play through. The actual investment of effort is not that great, the games are about short term challenge and fun.

On the opposite side we have places like Sundren where the investment in your character in terms of time (and often emotion) is high, having perma-death for every death would instantly prevent almost all dungeoneering and much RP. Why risk tens or even hundreds of hours worth of investment when a couple of unlucky crits kill your character forever?

Another risk is the PvP angle, I've played on some servers with very harsh death systems, they can be rewarding but generally require a huge amount of friend making just to get a character up to a level where they can even leave a town without getting ganked by random spawns, let alone meeting players who love to perma-curbstomp newbies with their high-level characters. Balance is a screaming nightmare for PvP classes even before you throw in things like level spread.


If it helps, view Player characters as the gifted ones, those touched by fate, woven into the tapestry of destiny or whatever. NPCs aren't. They're scared of death (and they should be, because it's common, frequently catching and there aren't any antibiotics). If you get a load of NPCs killed in the crossfire you won't be able to bring 'em back with love nor money, they just ain't got souls strong enough.

As a side note, if anyone does fancy a bit more of a challenge then we can set a Perma-Death flag on their character, might spice things up a bit.

[Taintedglory]

If I remember right, in 3.5 the rules for dying includes losing an entire level when you die, and if you die at level 1 you are dead forever (Barring a wish spell). I think the same applies for NPCs like your average level 0-1 no-class person

[Taintedglory]

I also forgot to mention that the component requirement for most resurrection spells in the ruleset is a handful of diamonds. Thats why it usually costs alot of gold, the Cleric has to actually buy a shitload of diamonds just to do it, then burn up the diamonds for the ritual.