People voting with their feet - An OOC Petition

[Janus]

OK. First of all let me appologise ahead of time for bring the subject of Drow back up but I really do think it is necessary this time. If you don't agree please shut down the thread or tell me to shut up or whatever, but please please please please please for the sake of Sundren hear me out first.

Players are bored, and because of this they are voting with their feet. They are leaving Sundren and going over to other servers.

I'm sure everyones noticed this and has been wondering why, we've been wondering why so much that a group of us went and put our heads together around a camp fire to see if we could figure it out.

Now I know I've said it before but I'll say it again.

People thrive on challenge, if they are not challenged they become bored and fed up and eventually go off somewhere they will be challenged.

In a normal role playing game the job of challenging the players is up to the GM. Unfortunately online there are too many people for GMs to cover continuously, this means that if there is not something else players will inevitably get bored with the hack and slash of monsters and leave.

This is what PvP was invented for.

Unfortunately PvP doesn't work unless you've got a well defined group of players willing to 'Play The Bad Guys' and they are given the means and support with which to do it.

When the Drow were gotten rid of it was envisaged that less recognisable evil players would band together and take over. THIS IS NOT HAPPENING.

Don't know why, but its not. Possibly no one wants to play evil characters without the assurance of support. Maybe a whole host of reasons. Bottom line is that since the Drow left there have not been any substantial Player Bad Guys and because of this SUNDREN IS DYING!

People are leaving Sundren. Without the players more and more people are going to get bored and leave. If enough people leave there will be little point in keeping Sundren running and it will all just end.

Non Drow Bad Guys aren't happening, so please please please please bring back the Drow. I know you don't want to but I fear that if this doesn't happen Sundren will die. The Drow weren't nice, they weren't meant to be but at least they kept everyone entertained and on the edge of their seats. They were part of what made Sundren so popular.

I'd like the Drow back because they are worthy opponents.

If you feel the same please sign below.

[undeadsteak]

Drow were a superb conflict, and they were fun. A few people just cried because they died, and now its gone. I seriously want them back.

Undeadsteak is signing!

[Belwas]

. A few people just cried because they died, and now its gone...

I very much disagree with the above sentiment and think that view was part of the problem. People need to respect each other not point fingers. While I agree that they did add some good conflict, there were serious flaws with the RP and the drow system as a whole.
If they were brought back I would hope that they would be very limited with where they could go... and if you wanted to go to those areas, expect PvP.

[Raksha]

There are lots and lots of evil characters around, actually. They're just being smart. Being a PC whose only purpose is to go around and encounter other characters and attempt to kill them just doesn't work. Attempting to defend any "dungeon area" with a PC aligned to that faction also doesn't work. And any characters that try to do this are going to end up needing more DM support than a DM's dedicated quest.

I'd like to present the viewpoint that the sort of conflict that isn't resolved in-engine is a lot more worthwhile, especially when between PCs:

1. You don't have the ridiculous suspension of disbelief required when certain "evil" characters come back again and again with no sign of infrastructure to support them.

2. There is less incentive to powergame and powerbuild. DMs on a quest can adjust for characters that are not born, bred and levelled for maximum effectiveness, and characters who have not ground all the dungeons getting gear. When it's just two PCs fighting using the engine, however, it's usually down to who has more hit points, or more levels, or AC Bazillion, or a Bigby's scroll. This also means that partially or fully non-combat characters, already pretty darned useless unless given serious DM love, will become even more so. And no one wants to be useless.

3. Related, there is less necessity for evil characters running around openly all over the place trying to level. This is actually a lot of the reason that you saw the Drow out so much -- they needed to become credible threats, which they simply couldn't do in a reasonable spread of time with story and training awards. Real drow? Take centuries to mature and learn to fight. PC drow? Have to do it in less than a week, or they die horribly over and over again (see 1).

4. It makes for a more satisfying conflict when one party will stay dead (see 1), but this is also difficult on players who put a lot of effort, and more importantly perhaps time, into a given character. The D&D system more or less assures that low-level characters in a higher-level environment are going to be pretty useless, thus meaning that losing a well-established character and having to start all over is a larger hit than it would be on an RPG without every key ability tied to levels.

Representing the decision to remove drow PCs as the DM team catering to a few whiners is a little inaccurate, I think. They had to look at a lot of things, and see what was best for the server.

THAT SAID! CONFLICT BETWEEN CHARACTERS IS GOOD! Everyone getting along and living in peace and harmony is bloody boring, because good writing requires conflict. However, tying that conflict to the necessity of having "evil players" running around and killing things is, I think, a bit narrow-sighted. Give the plots and little grudges time to develop. Don't hesitate to have a character show disdain. Get OOC permission with your character's rival to work out combat outside of the engine if you like.

So, a null vote from me. The GMs will do what's best for the server -- I just wanted to have a counteragument to "we need evil PKers running around!" posted up somewhere.

[Araxielle]

I would love to see the Drow or some other similar PCish force exist for the players to struggle against. A large part of this is that I'd simply prefer that the DMs didn't constantly have to provide the "bad guys", leaving players that want open sorts of conflict left only with brainless monsters to fight against when DMs are away. I'm tired of seeing PCs unrealistically piled into the most undesirable of locations (how I loathe you, Necropolis) doing this all day with no credible threat (that they aren't entirely aware of and prepared for) to worry about.

[cmosier]

It is hard to say that bringing the drow back is the fix all for Sundren. The whole thing that outlawed them was completely in character. Besides, drow were never known for there law abiding status. There are many people leaving Sundren, and this does upset me. If you have no players, then you have no server. We should find out why so many have left, I enjoy playing this Server and would like to continue doing so. If anybody has left Sundren and for some reason reads this thread, please post your reason for leaving, I am curious as to why. The rest of us should continue with our support and give the DM's time to plan. I will agree that having the drow around made things interesting and spawned some great RP, but I think there could be more to it than that.

[Poor_Otis]

As an aside, just because a character might be evil doesn't mean they have designs on taking over the world. Evil can just mean selfish, etc., unwilling to sacrifice anything of themselves for others, a cheating, lying a-hole. Conflict doesn't always have to be with a meglomaniac type villian.

Anyway, just a thought to consider.

BTW, yes, I've noticed population is down, but that may be more symptomatic of NWN II engine issues than server issues. I don't see a need for panic or anything; normal ebbs and flows of players. If OE fixed many of the multiplayer issues, more folks will be playing on servers. In the meantime, I hope the staff keeps plugging away on new content and fixes.

[undeadsteak]

Acutally, Poor Otis, I've noticed a few of our players going to other servers. But yes, NwN2's crashing is also a problem.

[GodBeastX]

Honestly? I don't care why people are leaving. Let them go if they're going to go. The people who are here still just get a louder voice in my opinion.

PC conflict is up to players to create. If someone wants to play badguys go ahead.

[Saulus]

Acutally, Poor Otis, I've noticed a few of our players going to other servers. But yes, NwN2's crashing is also a problem.

Less people = less headache. I've learned that now and I'm very happy with it. There is far too much drama that goes on with a very large playerbase and much of our time is pissed away just policing it.

[undeadsteak]

Heh, I suppose so. But sometimes the player population drops to like,6 players. And those that are on are in some monster zone. I end up having nobody to Roleplay with.

[Akuma_Reiten]

Another problem with trying to make an evil group is there's just not enough support/ places for them.

Underground player cults don't work unless there given more attention then is possible. But it doesn't work for a simple fact, not enough players in it's ranks. Just think of the time's your not online with other people you know makes this clear, and pile that with the number of people who are willing to put real effort into your cult, and you've got yourself long periods when there's just not enough people online.

The problem with an evil player group is the fact it becomes them vs all of sundren. How in the nine hells are you supposed to win against that? Plots and cunning will only get you so far with no bite to back it up.

To really create a long lasting conflict we'd need a faction just as big as Sundren. But there's all sorts of problems with doing this, plus it takes alot of time to get about right.

And personally calling for Drow's a bit unimaginative in my opionion.... There not the end all of bad guys... There's plenty of horrible things one can think up. I vote for a swamp tribe of Lizardmen! All hail the Lizardmen! Hell, we could make it a an Underdark Swamp tribe of lizardmen!... With pyschic powers and a strong desire to eat humans! (Cause there yummy when you get to the squishy core).

As for people leaving, this really is just a hurdle for Sundren. Don't forget this is a Beta and it's no where near finished yet. The reason people are leaving is a number of issues, but mostly cause they just can't wait for Sundren to solve them.

[Janus]

Well I have to say that the flip side to my arguement was that the fewer players there are around the more DM time I get. So as long as Sundren will continue then I'm cool with whatever.

I just love Sundren so don't want to see it vanish.

[Kaybrie]

Alot of the good RPers have left, but many of them are just kinda temporary tired of it and will inevitably come back. It just means we have to try hard to get out of our small player groups. As for PC conflict, I've noted that there has been a distinct lack of activity there for a while... Hopefully something cool will come with this cool thingy I'm doing with Yashe.

[Zoberraz]

I'm quite in agreement with Raksha's opinion. Quoted For Truth. ^_^