Villains

[Jhickey]

Okay, so I wanted to pose a question for discussion. I know I could be doing a ton of other things, like plotting to take over Sundren, or working on my Comps, but I decided to do this.

I was thinking about how you see the role of a villain on Sundren. Now before I elaborate on this more I will define what I mean by a villain. The official definition holds two meanings:

Villain:
1) A cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
2) A character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.

Seems simple if i was to ask any question based on the alignment axis of D&D, we could just pick out all the evil characters and call it a day. What I am asking is that you put those narrow preconceived notions aside for this discussion. Philosophically we sit on a continuum that is based on the society around us, our mores (morals) are grounded in the community we live and are cultivated (If you would like to debate this I am open, but it is not intended for this thread). Therefor, we need to look at the concept that a Villain is the person that opposes my own view.

Let us use a bit of context: I am Billy, solder from Sestra, and my biggest villain is Suzy from the Legion; she is the thorn in my side. This idea is of course interchangeable, and can be placed in most situations.

On to the purpose of the post: The character you play is at the center of your story, you log on with the ideas of what you will say and do as that character. The word your will refer to the character you play for the purposes of this thread, so please no personal things.

Questions for the community:

What is it you look for in a villain for your hero?

What is it that makes a good villain to your hero?

What would you like to see more of in a villain on Sundren?

These next few questions are a bit more personal, and you are by no means obligated to answer them.

Does your villain know that he is your rival?

How often do you get to interact with your villain?

What makes him/her your villain?

This last one is a bit abstract, and reflects the person playing the villain. ABSOLUTELY no personal attacks towards the person are acceptable, please keep it positive and constructive.

What is your favorite thing about the villain you have chosen/inherited?


Remember to always be respectful, no "calling" someone out, and have fun with the conversation.

[Fuzziebunny]

What would be a villain to Chime?


The easy one is : Some one who is very ugly, boorish, and destructive.

They harder ones : Someone who is good at corrupting others. The one who spreads subtle venom and lies to inspire hate and discontent. Some one who spreads fear and hopelessness with clever words. These are the people Chime watches for and actively works towards undoing their influence. Or to lessen the impact they have.


What is it that makes a good villain for Chime?


A good villain is some who is intelligent, good looking, and subtle.

It is easy to set fire to the woods. It is hard to rile the locals up enough to do it for you while you sit back and pretend to be a voice of reason.


What would I like to see more of from the villains?

Honestly, Chime hardly ever sees bad guys. Generally everyone is polite and cordial.


Does Chime have a rival?

No, she has no rivals yet.

[Lotus]

What is it you look for in a villain for your hero?

Someone who can oppose you on even footing in your area of strength, or who can manipulate your engagements such that they are decided by an area of their own strength.

For example, when I played Dain, his immediate chosen villain was Clive, who was putting people in the ground with the might of his god, Bane. Untouchable at the time, Dain frequently, vainly tried to beat him at his own game. Eventually, Dain did surpass Clive in strength and assumed the role of the superior hero. However, he remembered his many ass beatings and always "sold" that Clive was a badass that shouldn't be trifled with; "Protect the innocent, but don't engage him; he's for my sword, and mine alone."

The counterexample was Adeodatus, who despite being a powerful cleric couldn't hang with Dain in a fight on his best day with three of his best friends. His way around that was to engage Dain diplomatically, to sew kindness and congeniality in his wake and leave Dain frustrated that he couldn't rally support against the demagogue. When Dain went to Sestra and made a public appeal for the citizens there to leave and make new lives elsewhere, he met with only very diminished success because Adeodatus had either (a) endeared himself to the people by keeping them safe and well fed or (b) terrified them into fearful obedience with his absolute and crushing enforcement of the law. Adeodatus shaped the battlefield to suit his strengths and did his utmost to avoid playing the game Dain wanted to play.

Does your villain know that he is your rival?

They did.

How often do you get to interact with your villain?

Never. I joined the staff and thought it would be irresponsible to have a PC so powerful and influential sitting on the bench, so he's retired. When I played regularly, we interacted often enough.

What is your favorite thing about the villain you have chosen/inherited?

Despite them being my "villains," these particular players understood that despite the fact that we were mutual antagonists, we were still playing "with" each other and not against each other. As a result, we were able to craft memorable RP and enduring stories. Too many people get caught up in "winning" and end up actually antagonizing each other in an OOC sense, when really they should take a step back and appreciate the broader appeal of a cooperatively told narrative.

[Doubtful]

See, I'd probably have gone with Nemesis over Villain, Villain just conjours up mostache twirling Dick Dastardly esque characters and other cliches mugging badly at camera while the hero in white saves the useless but pretty girl.

OK. So, Nemesis, Arch Enemy, Villian, whatever the word... How do I feel about them?

You know what... I generally find the concept fairly trite for online play.

In your traditional story setting your actual hero has very little interaction with the villain of the piece, sure the villain is most likely there at some point near the start, then doesn't really have any interaction with the hero till pretty much the end of the story.
Classically when the Villian and Hero meet it tends to be the dramatic end of the story, the culmination of the heroes trials and tribulations as he faces up to the force that has set him upon his path. Drama happens, the story ends.

On a Persistent World though the dramatic culmination is often spoiled by the fact that whoever looses can just respawn. Given a few weeks and you'll find that most physically opposing groups boil down into the same tired kill and respawn tedium.

Of course, as Lotus rightly says, for players willing to go beyond the 'Opposition is PvP' mentality and to work at creating entwined living stories then their can be a lot of fun and interest to be had.

On the whole though I do feel that much of the best RP I've seen as a player and DM is not from the conflict created by PCs directly opposing eachother, but by PCs who have been working in competition toward another goal. A shared danger, threat or opportunity can provoke much, much more RP greatness than just having two people bash it out with no overarching plot.

I'll try and expand more on this later, but for now I must sleep! Race tomorrow

[The Butcher]

Ramza's biggest nemesis was Adeodatus, at one time. While many considered the two allies, it was Adeodatus' scheming that forced the Black Hand shrine to be erected over the Kossuth shrine, threatening to take over the entire enclave. It was Adeodatus' scheming that brought the Aurillites into Aquor. It took a lot of underhanded negotiations and political warfare to get/keep the Sestra mines as well as the banks in Sestra in order to quietly control Sestra's money supply and stop the Black Hand's encroachment onto the enclave. It took even longer for the enclave to find an efficient way to fight back the Aurillites without spilling Thayan blood/wasting money.

What made the conflict fun was how both sides did not resort to PvP: they used their resources, planning, and networking to try and steal the other party's resources and gain an advantage. This is what separates the bandits and faceless guards from the overlords and tyrants. Nearly every other organization/player resorted to PvP with little to no risky moves or networking outside of themselves.

[sonuvalich]

I have to agree with Doubt's semantics argument. "Villain" implies a force for evil, a malicious force, or at least someone who is self-centered at the expense of those around him. Perhaps a better word would be nemesis as Doubt said, or antagonist, foe, enemy, foil...

Anyhoo....

My experience with nemeses has left me a little wanting. I have found three main categories:

I- The Highschoolers
These are the opponents who basically sit around taunting me and tossing insults/vitriol. They are an irritant, and can be fun to get into it with, but not the foe that makes me fear for my life.

II- The Broken Records
AKA the brick walls. These are characters who answer any questions with "I hate you for reasons x, y, z." Then they usually morph into Group I. They are characters you can in no way interact with because their nucleus is the antimatter to your own. Sometimes a logical nemesis (Rasheman and Thay does it for me, Lathanderites and a known Necromancer) often not ("I heard Thayans sell slaves and so I hate you and will never, ever hear your side of the story because hearsay is never wrong!")

III- The Gearscores
This might be more of a meta category, but it is the characters that know they are boss in a fight and are waaaaaaay too eager to toggle hostile and wreck your shit. Or the rogues that assassinate you without any warning or provocation and just say "LOL Chaotic Evil, I do what I want!" Don't bump into many of these, but sometimes it seems characters start toeing the line where all matters should be solved with violence and game mechanics, instead of words and emoted actions...this is probably just a playstyle peeve.

Honestly and truly, I am stoked Ramza is back, because I sense potential for a great nemesis there. He already has a rich history of scheming and maneuvering, and Thayan vs. Thayan action is the only reason why the Red Wizards have not conquered the world. I love the Professor X/Magneto notion of two foes who respect and truly like one another, but are diametrically opposed and locked in an eternal chess game. And a foe who beats me at my own game gets way more props than a guy who can kick my ass in PvP.

[The Butcher]

Honestly and truly, I am stoked Ramza is back, because I sense potential for a great nemesis there. He already has a rich history of scheming and maneuvering, and Thayan vs. Thayan action is the only reason why the Red Wizards have not conquered the world. I love the Professor X/Magneto notion of two foes who respect and truly like one another, but are diametrically opposed and locked in an eternal chess game. And a foe who beats me at my own game gets way more props than a guy who can kick my ass in PvP.

This. I like playing the Thayan vs Thayan competitive angle, although it's not entirely conducive to a functioning faction. I feel like it detracted from players like Rhifox's experience because Ramza did everything in his power to place Josirah into his palm. Also, the enclave definitely became more lively when Sandro was the main man.

But the overly paranoid, always plotting of a Red Wizard is the best thing. You expect everyone to double cross you, but must maintain business as per usual while silently stacking the odds in your favor. Good stuff!

[Grey-Moth]

I was a little shy on posting on this topic, but I kept seeing everyone saying what I think. So I guess I'll stick my two cents in here too.

See, I really don't have any 'hero' characters. You could argue that Thresh, and Chibas are both heroes. But they are in their own way, Thresh will do a lot to protect her friends, the citizens of Sundren, and the woodlands from harm. Chibas will do a lot to see revenge is granted to anyone too weak to get it themselves, within reason.

In this fashion, I think Thresh and Chibas both are big antagonists for some people. Thresh challenges people to make smarter decisions all the time, mouths off to a lot of people, and yet somehow accrues a lot of support from where she stands. I guess people have a soft spot for lunatic masochists or something, because I'm still trying to get why anyone would stick their neck out for her. But even since the beginning when she was a godless little elf wandering around, secretly a Black Hand member, she was challenging people's views. I still remember when Andelain said one misplaced sentence to Thresh, and the elf wouldn't speak to him for... think it was a entire -month- he was getting scornful glares.

Thresh's biggest antagonist was probably Katria, and Johanna. Johanna constantly kept grinding it into Thresh's head to think for herself, and Katria, the vampire that had kidnapped Thresh and abducted her into the Black Hand, continued to help Thresh continue to be a slave in mentality. When the offer came for Thresh to be embraced, and turned vampire, I was honestly very surprised the elf wigged out and went on to avoid some of the really awful mistakes she made, and start trying to make up for them.

For Thresh, her perfect antagonists were two sides of a coin. Continue being a slave, and accepting pretty lies that the Black Hand wants the good of all. Or embrace freedom, even though it's hard, and invites personal responsibility. She ended up going Blackwood. Then ended up going Tuatha, when she knew her place was to try and help Sundren understand its environmental impact.

Then I have Chibas Belzer. I don't want to reveal too much about her forwardly, so the what you will know right off the bat. She's a Hoarite. She's a bit of a sadist. And like most Hoarites, follows because she has lost something incredibly important to her.

I think Chibas is a pretty big antagonist for some people. She challenges their views of what is 'justice'. Is it the rulings of a court and peers that have nothing to do with the crime? Or is it the placation of someone that has lost something, and will never get it back? She has made thus far only a small impact, but I know for at least two characters, she's starting to take a major role in challenging them to think about something that most people do not want to think about. What they would want, when the chips are down. And what they would do, when the Helmites fail and let the enemy escape them. She challenges people to remember a war is going on around them, speaking from her military experience.

And she'll have a lot more to do, once I get her up to twenty and figure out a few plans.

This isn't, I hope, sounding like a back-handed comment. The both of them have plenty of antagonists to themselves, some are PVP, some are RP. But, for me the difference between a brief thorn in my character's side and a true 'antagonist', a antagonist is memorable. And a fight in a game where we wander through dungeons and murder a million duergar, well. That's just another fight. That's just another brief encounter that either goes my way, or their way, and then it ends. That isn't to say there's no room for that sort of villainy, though. I mean, I'd love it if the war was about two nations of equal standing. Perhaps one is simply starving, and seeks to claim the lands of the others. Could have paladins versus paladins at that point, with neither side truly 'wrong'. They're just not truly 'right' either. But in a setting where things are born exclusively to do evil, such as vampires are always evil. Orcs are always evil. This is always evil, that, and the other thing, that chair even has a evil alignment. It's pretty hard to take a villain seriously that has no meat to their decision to -be- evil. Power is a reason, sure. Even a good reason, just take a look at politics (WARNING, DO NOT DISCUSS POLITICS, DEAR GOD DON'T DO IT.) I mean, it's the setting, really. You can be just another heavily armored thorn in the side of people for all of three minutes, fighting fights you know you'll win because you took every precaution behind peoples backs that will lead into, doubtlessly, yet another pvp victory for you (no, this is -not- a back-handed comment, I understand entirely the why you would do this and the how, and don't disagree). Or you can strive to be something in peoples faces. Something they can't ignore. Something they have to -deal with-. Even if it's something that they themselves have pain for, ICly speaking.

This is only my opinions, once again. I hope they didn't come off as lofty, or back-handed. Can't have a war without a evil dude, in a fantasy setting! And I guess you can't really have a Banite army, without a bunch of faceless mooks that are in it for... bad moral decisions, and/or money? I suppose. It does come with the territory, after-all. But I'll always take a RP encounter, over a PVP one without a DM handy. It's all in the imaginations, for me. I can also understand why a rogue will always leap out of the wood works and attack, rather then facing down Thresh. After-all, it's a rogue. ... stands about a snow ball's chance in hell of killing a wizard toe to toe.