Detect Evil and You

[Seheren]

I've run into this problem a lot. Every so often there is an influx of Paladins and some will use the ability all the time. I am all in favor of people using the feat, but not as a 24/7 feature. Nobody here is saying 'Don't use this!' it is just being said that it should be reserved for when it is appropriate. Using it 24/7 to chase off evil can make it very un-fun for others, and hard to RP. If we keep others in mind, it makes even more sense to only use this when people are acting shady.

[Mournas]

The only detection spell I usually throw up is Detect Undead, at night, when on patrol. I hardly ever toss up detect evil as it is especially annoying to throw my hands in the air and lean forward and "cast" it. Furthermore, if you do cast it well its stuck to you for 10 minutes.

[Talleyman99]

My issue with the detect spells is there borked ranges, and the moment you walk into an area then ding you from across the map. Detect undead is the biggest offender of this. It just gives said evil player no time to stop and drink his potion at the transition if he is trying to max out the time his "hiding" can last. I rember the days when Detect evil was one target one time. I dont know who though it should be made an unlimited cone of detect you.

[Lotus]

I dont know who though it should be made an unlimited cone of detect you.

Someone who wanted the spell to work like it's supposed to, I'd wager.

[Lugwy]

I was wondering why this topic seems familiar. Just have a sheet of lead handy.

[thaelis]

I think as long as it isn't misused then there is no issue with the way it works right now.

Maybe if someone feels its been misused they can report it and the Paladin involved can be publicly spanked.

[Torgar]

It's being misused right now though. I'm not going to name any names, but I've been to the second wind enough times to see paladins standing there, recasting detect evil over and over and over again while they stand there. Or while they are walking the roads, or while doing Anything at all. A big reason why nondetection potions were put onto the server was because of previous instances of this kind of thing, completely negating any smart roleplayers ability to come off as not evil for any length of time. It's why a lot of bad guys who were just role playing when they came to the fire, just start stomping good face because why would they RP? The moment they walk in, PING, you're evil. No more RP for you, ever.

Now, that's not why evil is doing the face stomping these days, but I'm simply stating that abuse of detect evil has been a problem in the past, and is a problem now. Don't queue up your detect evil 24 hours a day, period. Doing that is the definition of abusing an ability.

[Lugwy]

Make Detect Evil 1/day and a short enough duration to ping the evildar on that location and no longer? I know it's not true to the PnP way of putting it, but a self-running PW can't moderate abuse the way a smaller PnP group with DM present can.

EDIT: Alternatively, place a stacking "headache" debuff mechanic for continuous use of Detect Evil after the first invocation--maybe -1 to attack rolls/saves/skill checks? I don't know about the rest of you, but if I had to concentrate that much for that long to keep an evildar active, I'd get a headache too.

May as well throttle a nice thing if its intended purpose is just going to be stomped on.

[cmosier]

It's being misused right now though. I'm not going to name any names, but I've been to the second wind enough times to see paladins standing there, recasting detect evil over and over and over again while they stand there. Or while they are walking the roads, or while doing Anything at all. A big reason why nondetection potions were put onto the server was because of previous instances of this kind of thing, completely negating any smart roleplayers ability to come off as not evil for any length of time. It's why a lot of bad guys who were just role playing when they came to the fire, just start stomping good face because why would they RP? The moment they walk in, PING, you're evil. No more RP for you, ever.

Now, that's not why evil is doing the face stomping these days, but I'm simply stating that abuse of detect evil has been a problem in the past, and is a problem now. Don't queue up your detect evil 24 hours a day, period. Doing that is the definition of abusing an ability.

I disagree with this completely. As a Warlock, I kept several constant buffs up, including one that let me see invisible creatures. Is that abuse as well? I just don't see how using something that has unlimited uses an unlimited amount of times as abuse.

There seems to be this move against letting classes do what they're supposed to do. Rogues hide. Fighters hit hard. Wizards and Clerics have insane buffs. Paladins detect and fight evil.

The whole purpose of Detect Evil is to negate a clever evil person's ability to hide his evil. An evil character can't con people when a paladin is around because he's not supposed to be able to. That's kind of the point.

[Vaelek]

I disagree with this completely. As a Warlock, I kept several constant buffs up, including one that let me see invisible creatures. Is that abuse as well? I just don't see how using something that has unlimited uses an unlimited amount of times as abuse.

Comparing a warlock's invocations to Detect Evil. Stay classy.
It's in breach of sensible role-play utilization because it suffers from faulty mechanics. It is not meant to compare to a class that casts 24 hour buffs as many times as they please. As has been stated in the thread, it requires concentration and is a numbing ability to utilize for prolonged periods of time due to the inherent evil surrounding a Paladin.

The whole purpose of Detect Evil is to negate a clever evil person's ability to hide his evil. An evil character can't con people when a paladin is around because he's not supposed to be able to. That's kind of the point.

In situational terms. If a Paladin determines that someone is acting in a suspicious manner or considering someone for a partnership, or any of the many reasons that involves doubt or caution on the Paladin's part with someone of questionable background, then intense concrentation to discern the persons alignment is viable and should cease once a result is met.

[Nyssis]

The whole purpose of Detect Evil is to negate a clever evil person's ability to hide his evil. An evil character can't con people when a paladin is around because he's not supposed to be able to. That's kind of the point.

An evil char who is clever shouldn't arouse suspicion from a paladin that results in Detect Evil being cast in the first place. When this ability is used wantonly, it often circumvents rp and acts as an initiative roll for aggression or ostracizes them from future interactions with the community.

That eliminates the point of getting to know others' characters and weaving a good story for everyone to enjoy. People should have a chance to rp convincingly without being pinged an enemy at first glance, barring openly worn (un)holy symbols, divine/negative energy weapons or being known offenders.

Just because someone's playing an alignment diametrically opposed to your character's doesn't mean they shouldn't also have fun, despite being an enemy. I'd prefer people to at least have the dignity of a chat before sending someone to the Fugue or knocking them into a concussion, if they have to do so at all, but these are just my personal feelings on the matter.

[Laurk]

Just a case in point: I bet there's not one person who even mildly suspected that my "Ilmateri Healer" Abby was choatic evil. Not one. However because a certain paladin uses detect evil without any good reason, all my RP in trying to convince the server I play a harmless healer is out the window. Here I am casually sitting around, poking the fire, when up walks the Paladin-who-shall-not-be-named walks up to SOMEONE ELSE, casts detect evil and then turns toward Abby and starts howling about how my healer has a dark heart and is an agent of evil. Naturally everyone else in the area was like "WTF!?"

I would much prefer that it was a limited ability which focused on 1 target. That way a Paladin would only really use it when his suspicions were arroused, or he had reason to make double sure. If this was the case, my carefully laid plans as a villian wouldn't have been blown by this ability for no good reason.

The reason Detect Evil is disabled in nearly every PW out there is because it makes it all but impossible for villians to rise to a level where they can compete and actually fill the roll as villans. Villians absolutly make servers worth logging on too and create tension and conflict, which are both crucial to a good server atmopshere. Detect Evil makes this process more difficult and thus disinentivises villians.

Id suggest planar motes to mask alighnment indefinatly, or changing detect evil to a targeted X # of uses per day that functions much like "detect magic."

PS: This didn't actually happen. just playing devil's advocate. Still to me this is a problem that probably does arise and could arise that would be a real pain for an actual villian in disguise.

[Delexos]

^ I pretty much sprayed coffee all over my laptop screen after reading this.

Then I read the last line and calmed down.

I have to say Laurk makes good points here, in fact most of the people posting in this thread make good points.

I tend towards the Smart evil end of the scale, playing the subversive elements, I like to roleplay with good guys, my characters like to get good guys to do their work for them because they generally know they can trust the good/noble guys. Its the more out and out destructive evil types that surround themselves with all evil allies, but the problem is that all it takes is for one, not so savvy, evil guy to roll up when i'm chilling out with my good guy buffer to ruin it. It's happened before, one wrong move by someone else and I'm picked up on every nearby paladin radar.

Non-detection works to a point but in protracted free flow roleplay you have no clue when it's going to run out and suddenly put you at risk of the little ooc spell symbol flashing up above your head. I honestly believe that so far I have always played smart and never tipped my hand that I might be a shady guy who needs a quick spot check just to be certain.

But suddenly finding yourself locked out of rp circles after working hard to build up easy going relationships is always a hard blow to take, especially if its because of someone else not playing smart evil, or some new blood Paladin who just discovered their never ending sonar ability.

[YakaryBovine]

Just a case in point: I bet there's not one person who even mildly suspected that my "Ilmateri Healer" Abby was choatic evil.

WHAT?

PS: This didn't actually happen. just playing devil's advocate. Still to me this is a problem that probably does arise and could arise that would be a real pain for an actual villian in disguise.

Great. Nearly gave me a heart attack.

[cmosier]

Detect Evil requiring Concentration and it being useable at will are two separate arguments. Again. I still haven't seen a valid RP reason why a paladin couldn't stand around a campfire and detect evil. All I see is the argument "It makes life hard for my evil character." Which is the purpose of a paladin.

And, I've been asked if I had an RP reason to cast See the Unseen, before. My response: Because I want to see invisible people.

Yes. It should require Concentration and should be set up similar to how Tracking works.