Opposing-Faction Roleplay

[Dave Fritz]

As I read the Wiki rule quoted above by FoogooFish, the intent is that subdual is an option requiring active invoking, ie that kill is the default. So that's the rule as it stands.

I would be in favour of changing the rule.

[Jhickey]

I love that idea Dispater!

Give me a another week or so to get acclimated back into school and I would be willing to organize something like this. Maybe I can rope Foogoo in!

[Shadechild]

2.) All Downside, No Upside. Losing in PvP can be a pretty serious thing. You lose a big chunk of vitality, you could lose an item or all your carried gold (including possibly a lynchpin item like your weapon that makes you capable of surviving PvE environments in which you can get back your losses).

What do you get if you win? Well ... you -could- take gold or an item, at the cost of making the opposing player really mad. And ... well ... yeah, that's it. This bonus isn't specifically better for picking on characters your own size-- err, level. Granted, there are story and pride benefits, but in purely mechanical terms every PvP encounter makes the players as a whole poorer in the same way that every PvE encounter makes the players as a whole richer.

Back in my day, I used to be afraid of being Kidnapped on most of my Characters. SO much that it became a normal event if I lost in PvP. I mean, that was the most logical outcome for a defeated opponent, to capture them for information or strategic use, bartering advantage or moral loss and even torture. Heck, even putting a Geass on them with some hidden agenda. I could think of a hundred reasons a living PC is worth more than a Dead one.

Here? It's just Kill-on-Sight.

Now concerning lore and the environment, its the norm here to just slaughter the opponent mercilessly and move on. I accept that.
(For clarification, this isn't me Whining. See my post in http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthr...371#post151371 concerning my standpoint on overall PvP if you think it is.)

Interesting Fact, you're better off finding RP from a possible conflict when it's simply a one-on-one encounter. You will find most senseless slaughters are done when the opposing force greatly outnumbers their target (Also called Blobbing, for those of you with that etiquette.)

I'm all for RP and I'd adore the idea of something fulfilling coming out of character confrontation aside from mechanics.

I don't think people should be awarding for being victorious, just for the simple fact that it would promote more Killing, if anything they should be awarded for sub-dual but then that would give an OOC mechanics net over IC actions whilst interfering with character concepts & ideals.

How is it solvable? Well, I don't personally feel that any amount of script can stop the problem. People can hide from Scry and RP with their buddies to their hearts content.

In the end, it just comes down to the close-knit Community wanting to open up to people, new people in general on an IC and OOC basis.

[Valhalla]

Despite what the rules may say, out of the 4 or 5 large pvps I've been in in the last month that didn't have a DM supervising them, there was not a single one where someone didn't stand back up and rejoin the fight after being subdued.

I stopped turning it on after the 3rd time someone got up and chugged a heal potion and charged back in.

To be clear: under no circumstances should you rejoin the fight if you were knocked unconscious with subdual? No matter if you're healed with another's spell, or regen back up, etc.?

[Doubtful]

Despite what the rules may say, out of the 4 or 5 large pvps I've been in in the last month that didn't have a DM supervising them, there was not a single one where someone didn't stand back up and rejoin the fight after being subdued.

I stopped turning it on after the 3rd time someone got up and chugged a heal potion and charged back in.

To be clear: under no circumstances should you rejoin the fight if you were knocked unconscious with subdual? No matter if you're healed with another's spell, or regen back up, etc.?

It's not just in non-DM supervised fights, I've lost track of the number of times people have just jumped right back up and into the fray when they've been fully aware that a DM's been watching, or, worse, just hopped back up and started kicking off again after a 'you're near deaths door' res.

I suppose it's more annoying for you guys when it happens because you can't just insta-fugue the offending party (with 0 vitality for repeat offenders).

Personally I've very little time for people with no regard for event etiquette, pvp etiquette or all-round poor table manners. I suggest having a quiet OOC word with people who pop back from being subdued as if it was nothing at all. If they get pissy, laugh it off or whatever then screen shot it and whisk it over.

I'm happy to have a quiet word with people and if need be take steps with repeat offenders and those with a flagrant disregard for other players.

[Dispater]

Unless agreed upon by the victorious party/player once knocked out, you are done. Period.

[Kitsunestume]

3. Default to subdual. Longer subdual knockdown period. I think one of the big reasons that subdual isn't used is that you default to lethal, and that even punching on them until they shown 'knocked out' doesn't keep them down long. This is especially true for characters with regen, which pop up almost instantly. A subdued character isn't locked out of roleplay, even if they're unconscious -- they get to see what's going on, even if they don't recall it, instead of just staring at the fugue. Likewise, lengthening the subdual period means that subduing a character isn't as likely to end in them just jumping back up and rejoining the fight, so it isn't as effin' stupid.

I would definitely get behind this. Perhaps a decent-duration stagger effect after hitting 0 HP as well as (or in place of) the lengthened knockdown? Whatever that effect is that prevents hostile action with the purpley-swirl behind a head for the debuff.

[Edit]:My reasoning being that during one situation, due to paying too much attention to the combat at hand, the silent yellow messages in my chatlog were unnoticed until too late and the fast-healing effect on my character lead me to the conclusion of use of Knockdown rather than subdual. A total inability to actually participate in combat would be a nice reminder that one should NOT be. Just my thoughts, hopefully understandable.

[BubbaCornbread]

If people considered the server is RP and actually RP encounters, send tells and such before to lay ground rules, and then hit subdual first and then kill later if necessary, I think this would fix a lot of issues.

Sometimes it may be eagerness or wanting to get the first attack; but if everyone thought out the encounter and talked via tells beforehand, I think many encounters can be great RP events, with the defeated losing face and maybe a little bit of rep and the winner gaining prestige and maybe a bit of rep.

It can also be RP'd on the forum, with declarations and such.

Just a thought.

[cmosier]

"1. Create a way to retire characters for XP. Maybe even with a bonus for a PvP death. This, I think, would solve a -big- problem. A level 20 characters is hours and hours of time investment that would have to all be repeated for a new character. Lesser but still leveled characters have the same issue. Just as a ballpark, say you restart with 40% of XP or gold normally, or 45% if the character retired just died from PvP."

I know I'm alone, but I'm against this. I already see a trend of people rushing to 20 then getting bored. New characters and alts should stand alone. You made it to level 25 super god status once, have fun and do it again. I understand this is more about the PvP aspect, an easier solution would be to just tone back the PvP. I can find just as many reasons to leave and talk as I can to fight.

[Kitsunestume]

If people considered the server is RP and actually RP encounters, send tells and such before to lay ground rules, and then hit subdual first and then kill later if necessary, I think this would fix a lot of issues.

Sometimes it may be eagerness or wanting to get the first attack; but if everyone thought out the encounter and talked via tells beforehand, I think many encounters can be great RP events, with the defeated losing face and maybe a little bit of rep and the winner gaining prestige and maybe a bit of rep.

It can also be RP'd on the forum, with declarations and such.

Just a thought.

While I agree that this is the ideal situation, it's nonetheless a prisoner's dilemma:
1: If everyone talks it out, everyone comes out better, but it takes longer.
2: If one person tries to talk it out, but the other just does straight into PVP, the person busy typing is at a serious disadvantage.
3: If both people assume situation two is going to happen, and don't want to lose, no RP happens, and people just die, but it's less of a disadvantage to try to win.

Just an analytical comparison, hope as much is understood

[Torgar]

I would be fine with a retirement program of some extra xp or maybe even a small stat bonus to the next character for retiring a character, on the condition each PERSON only be given it ONCE. Just a one time deal. So, people would use it wisely, and only apply it to a character they really want to play. And if that character ends up not working out, well, sorry, but that's what you choose to use your bonus on. And people with multiple accounts to not get it on multiple characters. Only one per person, ever.

Just an idea I had.

[LOLC2k]

While I agree that this is the ideal situation, it's nonetheless a prisoner's dilemma:
1: If everyone talks it out, everyone comes out better, but it takes longer.
2: If one person tries to talk it out, but the other just does straight into PVP, the person busy typing is at a serious disadvantage.
3: If both people assume situation two is going to happen, and don't want to lose, no RP happens, and people just die, but it's less of a disadvantage to try to win.

Just an analytical comparison, hope as much is understood

Number two and three are, ultimately, why after my most recent disappointment I've thrown in the nwn 2 towel. In events or planned encounters CvC is something Ive no problem with.

However, I fully admit I have slow reflexes and am often caught being attacked while emoting or talking. Now this can easily mean my character was surprised, and sometimes there's an IC reason for them to have been. Never the less, I'm usually dead by the time I realize "oh, they are cvcing." (Against me, a surprise round is basically 3-4 rounds, so any non gimp of approachable level to my character has me dead).

On the whole, I'm neither mature enough to let that slide when it happens over and over again, nor am I interested in altering my playstyle to cvc as soon as it looks like it might be a hostile situation, I really don't find cvc without roleplay to be very interesting. It can be entirely IC, of course, its merely something I find extraordinarily unfun.