Sundren One Month-ish in Review

[wangxiuming]

I personally am of the opinion that assassinations should not require any OOC notification. There's too much potential for metagaming, subconscious or otherwise.

The aggressor/winner in PvP should have the responsibility to be respectful and considerate ... but he should not have to coddle his target or cripple his own PvP attempts.

[bipolar bear]

from my experience .. I was envolved with a sort of dm envolved episode where a dm and another player had me a rather "rock and a hard place" situation. during which time I casted flame strike which hit the (dm/npc) and the player. I knowing my ass was pretty much toast at that time fled the scene to ( as cowardly as it sounds was what he would do to regain the advantage). the events leading up too this happened really fast and me being not very experienced with PvP had forgotten all about the subdual button and ( and I think the other party did as well) I lucked out beat the other player using gurrilla like ( cheap shot SOB tactics.).
after this I had a talk with the other player who had reminded me about the subdual button and I applogized.

with this in mind perhaps PvP would be much better be done as a standard with subduel on, unless other wise agreed apon with all PC.s


assassinations... perhaps a VERY early notice might be worth it. some one can only buff for so long before having to rest again. and it would make folks pick their timing very carefully.

BPB.

[Daimondheart]

I'm a bit confused by your response, Shadechild, as I did state assassinations should be the exception to the rule and... it's like you're "not arguing" with me on the other points.

Either way, I just wanted to make a suggestion and clarify some points. The staff can take it or leave it. As for reputation, well that's pretty much like life. If you don't want to PVP, you're going to have to risk you character being called a coward.

I think the big issue with PVP is that the players that don't like it are actually pacifists in real life. They don't want to "fight" with other players. They can't separate fantasy from reality and don't want to risk hurting anyone else's feelings over a game.

Then there's the people that take PVP quite literally as an any attack against their character is actually an attack against themself as a player. I'll never forget the one time I was RPing, a character threatened to kill mine, she turned her back, so my character shot her in the back with an arrow and killed her. The player then took the time to ask if I enjoyed killing her helpless character. I was like... "Wha?"

So yeah, the issues with PVP seems to be that often it is interpreted as just that, Player versus Player, when in reality it should be Character versus Character.

[thaelis]

Why should I have to warn you or alert you of my presence, if I can instead take down Billy Badass #2 in a swift victory.[/I]

I agree with all of the above except this.

Because, when you are RP'ing, writing emotes etc and not expecting PvP you will have a massive disadvantage (probably 2-3 rounds of attacks against a defenseless opponent), way more significant than a single surprise round in PnP (which I believe even allows a Sense motive/Initiative roll to avoid? I'm talking regular opponents not stealthed...)

For many classes, i.e. anyone but a warrior, being OOC'ly surprised does not mean "slightly higher chance to lose" it means "you're 100% F****d". Wizards for example have on average AC 12 and a max of 100hp.

If someone is already engaged in Pvp and you wade in from invisibility/concealment then ya that is vastly different. That is only IC surprise not OOC surprise.

[Raksha]

Here's the thing about retreating: it turns into a prisoner's dilemma pretty quickly.

Party A and Party B are lounging around the Second Wind when AAAH RUBY AND A DOZEN FRIENDS.

- If Party A and Party B stay to fight, they are either defeated or taken captive or survive via invisibility / etherealness / thing. All's well.

- If Party A and Party B both run, everyone lives. Yay!

- If Party A runs and Party B stays to fight, and Party B survives or is informed by a witness what happened, Party A gets pegged with cowardice. Unlike vitality, reputation does not regenerate. A character getting a bad reputation does them harm that no number of Hold Ales can correct, and fades -much- more slowly.

Because there is almost never actual death in these situations, it is often far more beneficial from an objective standpoint for a character to stay and fight.

And all it takes is one person of a given group saying 'no, I won't retreat!', of which there is -always- at least one.

[Shadechild]

Disclaimer: Being the Whiner that I am, I have to say that the PvP on the server is at best, in the right condition to carry out the actions of the characters present. Evil People do Evil things to those they consider possible victims with little obligations to cater to these victims needs. Good People, do 'Good' Things towards 'Evil' People, usually by just saying 'Well, my faith is better than yours.' and 'Your Wrong. Time to die' along with our favorite catchphrases " Die." "Purge" "Cleanse" and " I'm doing the right thing because well, I read it in a book on 'morals'."

Even after my little rant, I don't feel as if more rules should be enforced, but instead a little empathy used prior. This does not mean, however, that this so called 'Empathy' should result in ignoring the current PvP Code, or disrupt RP.

If the Banites want to assault The Second Wind, they shouldn't have to ask.
If Someone wants to mug someone else on the side of the road, be gentle.
If Someone wants to kidnap you, play along. It'll be fun RP. Just stop them before they get all 'I wanna cut you babe' if it makes you feel uncomfortable.

Be polite & Courteous. Put yourself in the boots of others.

there is the chance of mechanical escape.

Sounds God-modish. 'Mechanical', I'm going to assume is in reference of an IC action of casting a spell, or drinking a potion in which by means to escape. Which would come down to resulting in a confrontation as those present, scramble to disrupt or put down the above mentioned person. What stops me from stopping you?

If it's a result of other means, as in, by the book means, both parties in a fair sense of equality, would have a chance to escape/capture one another. I Epic Dodge, lol...

Perhaps you should keep your character's cowled until PVP has been accepted by both parties?

Spot Checks. PvP isn't a group acceptance. Almost comically and as an example, PvP is usually silently accepted when Ruby walks into the Second Wind, throws a few well worded insults, everyone else draws blades, Ruby draws blade, drinks potions, others stare or commune silently. Then flail about until they are all dead.
Honestly, Billy Badass can come out of invisibility and Smite you before you get a chance to react, while this can be considered bad sport, it is the most realistic outcome of an In-character perspective. Why should I have to warn you or alert you of my presence, if I can instead take down Billy Badass #2 in a swift victory.
This Prevents:
A) Player 1 kills a bunch of people He/She knows she will win against. Player 2, a Victim tells other players. Posse' forms to hunt down Player 1, when encountered, Player 1 says 'I don't want to PvP', but makes it an extreme hassle or downright impossible to capture them in the following Forced Dicebag Combat. I rolled a 20 on DEX, I'm saying that I can Flee the scene from all 5 of you. Even the Mage and Archer there in the back.
B) The Good old, Assassin[Tell]: Hello, I was hired to assassinate your character. I am required by Server Rules to Alert you, Ahead of Time. Please don't log out or go sit in a crowded locations with Metagame knowledge =(

Or you could also put in a terror rule. Parties that choose to avoid PVP by fleeing are required to RP being too scared to remember who their attacker(s) was.

Or just... Use Sub and beat their character unconscious without sending them to the Fugue. It was a common practice to lead by example in a sense that one person lives to tell of the Horrors, even if their memory was a little patchy. That's how Folklore & Myths spread.

As for Paladins, I'm pretty sure none of their codes require them to be suicidal. If you're referring to the whole immunity to fear thing, well, you need to either get creative on why your character's divine blessing failed or accept there are evil PCs on the server and you may need to PVP them for the sake of your character. On any server where good and evil PCs can collide, you need to accept the possibility of a PVP situation.

Tactical Retreat.

Paladin 1: Hey... Uh, Citizen 2. There's like, Eighteen Banites that just came in from Pioneers Way. Let's go.
Citizen 2: But Mr. Paladin 1! You are the divine will of Torm! Smite them all!
Paladin 1: (Now in a Grave, Irritated Tone)There's Eighteen Banites over there. I'm not Dain. Let's go.

[Daimondheart]

No offense, but some of you guys aren't that good keeping your cover anyway. Regardless, any time you risk revealing yourself to a party, there is the chance of mechanical escape. Perhaps you should keep your character's cowled until PVP has been accepted by both parties? Or you could also put in a terror rule. Parties that choose to avoid PVP by fleeing are required to RP being too scared to remember who their attacker(s) was.

As for Paladins, I'm pretty sure none of their codes require them to be suicidal. If you're referring to the whole immunity to fear thing, well, you need to either get creative on why your character's divine blessing failed or accept there are evil PCs on the server and you may need to PVP them for the sake of your character. On any server where good and evil PCs can collide, you need to accept the possibility of a PVP situation.

[Doubtful]

Paladins are perfectly within their rights to withdraw in the face of certain defeat, overwhelming odds or a patently superior opponent, no risk of status loss.

Tactical prudency isn't against most oaths, in fact many gods would most likely take a dimmer view of the paladin who pointlessly throws away his life.

As for rules enforcing an opt out conversation prior to PvP, I'm afraid I'd be firmly against that.

RP before CvC is a great habit, good form, good etiquette and definitely something to be encouraged in most situations. There are a few situations where prior rp is impractical, silly or unnecessary, rather than having a complex, faceted rule that attempts to cover every situation it is best to keep it simple.

[Farmboy2003]

not to mention that more than half of the evil pcs would have their cover ruined, if their targets/foes were allowed a mechanical escape via rules. I know a few pcs that survive mostly to the memory loss rule

[Lugwy]

Paladins don't flee. They execute tactical retreats.

[thaelis]

Is it out of character for paladins to flee? Could you lose paladin status for it?

[Daimondheart]

I was addressing the one issue in which the player was attacked before he had a chance to even respond with his emote.

[wangxiuming]

... or they could just run away

Believe me, it works! I have escaped a few certain deaths that way. There's no rule saying you have to allow yourself to be killed.

[Daimondheart]

A simple solution to this is to require all PVP initiators to give their targets the option of running away. If target(s) chooses to run away, it is treated as an auto defeat and the target must role play accordingly with the "defeat" as they run away. S/he can't jibe, threaten, or bravely run away. Your character lost, s/he was humiliated, now get out of there. The only exception to this rule being assassinations and/or DM run PVP events.

[thaelis]

I'm usually dead before I get an attack in, as I have a tendency to be typing or emoting when I am attacked.
Edit: Not everytime. Today's pvp for example was well done, as was last nights.

Unfortunately there are ways to 'design' your character to be good at PvP, and if you didn't do it you'll lose near every time in a one-on-one (Improved combat expertise+tower shield, Disarm etc)

If you're in a faction that is in open conflict with another faction, carry plenty of Invis potions with you in-case you get jumped! Then run away to report the incident to your superiors.

And travel in "patrols" when you go adventuring

Some classes/characters are weak 1-on-1 but do well if you have a tank to take the heat for them while they stand back and dish out damage.