Please be on the lookout!

[Phantom Lamb]

As I make changes, it would help to collect feedback about encounters. Let me know your thoughts and reactions for things that are "at level" for you. Again, you earn 20 XP for a white named monster you kill solo if it is "at level."

Also, errors might slip in. Please be on the lookout for:

- Purple-named mobs that don't belong (as of today)

- Red named mobs that are way too easy (I hope we reintroduce the XP max, but some folks have gotten as much as 1600 XP for a single kill!)

- Anything else you think might be exploitable



Thank you!

[Seheren]

The red named Mummy ((Something that starts with an S)) that you fight after completing the Necropolis puzzle was a good tough fight, however he dropped nothing and gives less XP then most of the normal spawns((48 XP for 3 level 10's)). The Crypt is a cool place, but it could benefit from varied spawns. When I went down every spawn group was identical. Otherwise I love it!

[thaelis]

- Red named mobs that are way too easy (I hope we reintroduce the XP max, but some folks have gotten as much as 1600 XP for a single kill!)

Whilst I agree that 1600 is way too high, the old xp max was a little too low. It meant there was no difference between killing something tough, and killing something super ridiculously tough, where half your party dies and you use up all your resources kinda tough.

We got 350ish??? today for killing the goblin chief at level 5, which involved risk of death for the entire party. I thought that was fair enough. You can kill 10-12 goblins at no risk for the 350, or one goblin chief at extreme risk.

[gbbishop]

Whilst I agree that 1600 is way too high, the old xp max was a little too low. It meant there was no difference between killing something tough, and killing something super ridiculously tough, where half your party dies and you use up all your resources kinda tough.

We got 350ish??? today for killing the goblin chief at level 5, which involved risk of death for the entire party. I thought that was fair enough. You can kill 10-12 goblins at no risk for the 350, or one goblin chief at extreme risk.

I think this is a good point. a red should be worth at least 10-12 whites. and it should be very difficult to kill solo. I think fighters have the advantage at lower levels but a red should be able to drop some stuff that calls for will save.

One idea to make them less "exploitable" would be to have their XP scale down faster. Kill them at level Great xp. Kill them from a higher level... eh not much more than the grunts.

Also slow down their spawn rates? Or make them killable for xp gain once per day? maybe in a quest style system. want to kill the chief? talk to this guy. Go kill the Chief? no more quest for that day... like the old system but with a daily limit.

[Fezzik]

You can probably put it on a variable instead of "talk to Sargent Graham/guy in the Bunker/misc NPC with Head Fetish...."

[Phantom Lamb]

Here is the problem:

The encounters - especially low level ones - are designed so everyone can succeed. We play with druid / duelists, rogues, bards, etc. to play test these. We gear them so even wonky, RP builds who don't offer a whole lot in combat can find success if they stick to white and green mobs only. In other words, it's scaled for the "weakest links."

But, we know that many folks build characters to excel in combat - myself included. There are tons of dwarves out there now who can just house ogres at level 5 - they have DR feats, the built-in AC, etc. to make it very easy. This is just one example, but that's typically what I see... "I was in a party with dwarves killing ogres and got 500 XP per kill, even though I didn't contribute much myself!"

"Ringers" are pulling other characters through high level areas. I think partying up is great, and I love the XP bonus for partying, etc. But if we don't limit the amount you get, we get into the old situation we had. The monsters were so tough on Sundren in the first place because they wanted folks to be challenged. That backfired, making it so only the optimized characters could succeed regularly. If we are to maintain the current environment where encounters are geared for the least, we have to cap to prevent excessive XP rewards.

Again, this isn't anyone's fault, and I'm not suggesting you're a dingleberry for making a dwarven shitmonster slayer But while things are easier, we still want folks to target areas that are "at level" for them. Capping XP rewards will do that.

But yes, killing the Goblin Chief with a party of 5s is spot on as far as I'm concerned! 350 may be a bit much, but not overwhelmingly so. 500 for green named kills is bad though.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

"Ringers" are pulling other characters through high level areas. I think partying up is great, and I love the XP bonus for partying, etc. But if we don't limit the amount you get, we get into the old situation we had. The monsters were so tough on Sundren in the first place because they wanted folks to be challenged. That backfired, making it so only the optimized characters could succeed regularly. If we are to maintain the current environment where encounters are geared for the least, we have to cap to prevent excessive XP rewards.

I'm down with this, PL. I think while being able to level at a regular and less than snail's pace rate is good, I've seen so many folks level to 20 in under a week. Not that's a bad thing, mind, but I do think there should be a limit to how much xp a lower level party can snag from a boss like a red.

[gbbishop]

I say the bosses should NOT have a cap. If they are appropriately difficult. The optimized "dingleberry" I am less worried about. I got killing machine! 15th level but he can't really solo anything that give more than 8-12XP (granted he is built for offense)

When I start getting 12 or 8xp a kill I stop playing regardless how challenging it is. I think lower XP rates are okay when there are other goals worth attaining. That boss for example that gives 600xp for example and has a cool loot drop.

As long as folks can't rinse and repeat em, I say let em hit hard and drop big.

That there is the trouble, the rinse and repeat gig. 500 a pop is crazy talk though. I know ogre well and I dont ever remember getting 500 a pop. Orge mage was giving 350ish as I recall. Maybe high but they had been casting mirror image and could drop most ppl to half with fire. or gust of wind. Recently they have been a little wimpy though.

Granted I play my Sundren in bursts but I love seeing my characters develop. The faster killing goes the more time I have to do some RP, I guess is how I look at things.

When we (cleavers) roll out we get max xp for our level but we are always IC, ALWAYS. Right now mobs are the only way to advance a character. If combating mobs remains the prime way to develop your toon, I think rinse repeat will continue, what ever the xp rate is. Lower the rate too much and people won't progress and they will move on to other games where they can see progress.

[Envy]

I have to agree. I think having a once per day boss that gives that big xp jolt((with serious difficulty)) is ideal. That makes running down a dungeon fun! If you can't just kill him repeatedly the big xp gain isn't such an issue.

[Lugwy]

My take is, if they want to power to twenty at the cost of having the roleplaying depth of a cardboard cutout, that's their prerogative.

A limit on exp bonuses for going under level would be welcome, though; 96 exp per white on a level 6 in a full party doing Mirakus? Delicious, but silly.

Granted I play my Sundren in bursts but I love seeing my characters develop. The faster killing goes the more time I have to do some RP, I guess is how I look at things.

When we (cleavers) roll out we get max xp for our level but we are always IC, ALWAYS. Right now mobs are the only way to advance a character. If combating mobs remains the prime way to develop your toon, I think rinse repeat will continue, what ever the xp rate is. Lower the rate too much and people won't progress and they will move on to other games where they can see progress.

I'm curious. Why do you feel obligated to satisfy an exp quota before you can roleplay? Most of the best argh pee I've had came from times when I was too lazy to bisect experience piñatas en masse, and the 30-a-pop trickle adds up when you burn hours in character development.

[Cornuto]

My take is, if they want to power to twenty at the cost of having the roleplaying depth of a cardboard cutout, that's their prerogative.

Kind of agree with this. The speed at which people get to level 20 isn't something I lose sleep over.

[gbbishop]

Lugway@ never said I have a set XP quota before I "play". You are putting words in my mouth. I am the first to want to get some arp rolling; I think the folk I roll with can attest to that. What I don't have is hours (bout 89 hours 15-16) to devote to gaming but I still like to progress my characters, both story and xp wise. And, with DND, I think they go hand in hand. (in my pnp-circle it was rare to have a gaming session with out getting a level, so you have to bear that in mind, I know some groups could go several sessions with out a level)

Envy Cornuto@ THIS! Power to 20 if that is what you love to do. I have been here for 4 years and I still don't have a 20 :P love me some good XP though.

[ManUtd4Ever]

My take is, if they want to power to twenty at the cost of having the roleplaying depth of a cardboard cutout, that's their prerogative.

I agree... powering to 20th level is less rewarding than taking your time and developing your character along the way.

However, some of the best RP I have had on this server was grinding in a party. Paddy McFearsome in Argyll and with other Banites... Angus tagging along with a group of Skullcleavers, all comes to mind. Not all good RP occurs beside a fire (not that you asserted this notion)... IMO it is possible to have great RP while wielding a hammer or axe.

So I do not support the wholesale presumption that powering to 20th level by default means a player has the RP depth of a cardboard cutout. But, I do have a fundamental belief that the more experiences a character has while leveling the more the player can call upon.

Cheers!

[Lugwy]

too many quotes make it stop ;~;

Lugway@ never said I have a set XP quota before I "play". You are putting words in my mouth.

The "quota" remark was written in jest (and my apologies if you took that literally), but I wrote it to point out that your comment:

The faster killing goes the more time I have to do some RP, I guess is how I look at things

implies that you feel obligated to grind mobs to get EXP before you get to the RP/"play". It's this mentality expressed that I'm curious about.

I am the first to want to get some arp rolling; I think the folk I roll with can attest to that. What I don't have is hours (bout 89 hours 15-16) to devote to gaming but I still like to progress my characters, both story and xp wise. And, with DND, I think they go hand in hand. (in my pnp-circle it was rare to have a gaming session with out getting a level, so you have to bear that in mind, I know some groups could go several sessions with out a level)

They do go hand in hand, and that's why trickle exists as a mode of progress when you don't have a DM to watch and offer EXP for boss roleplaying. It's not the progress you get if you decide to hop into some dwarven ruins and go into Murder Stab Kill mode, but it's progress, and if a DM notices and drops an EXP bomb on you, well, so much the better.

Plus, it makes finally reaching 20 all the sweeter.

However, some of the best RP I have had on this server was grinding in a party. Paddy McFearsome in Argyll and with other Banites... Angus tagging along with a group of Skullcleavers, all comes to mind. Not all good RP occurs beside a fire (not that you asserted this notion)... IMO it is possible to have great RP while wielding a hammer or axe.

I agree with your IMO--as I've had some pretty entertaining RP sessions while in hostile zones and/or cleaving things in two--but most of the time when I'm in a full-on grinding session, RP takes a back seat (e.g. silent whirlwind of murder through zone) or is loosely applied to certain circumstances (e.g. as above, except punctuated by "Oh shit, Joe's being mauled!" where appropriate) to make way for efficient xp/min.

It is indeed possible to have great RP while delving for EXP as anywhere else, but it seems more the exception than the norm. :\

So I do not support the wholesale presumption that powering to 20th level by default means a player has the RP depth of a cardboard cutout.

If you or anyone here can power to twenty in a week while still being able to interact actively and build character development in that same week in-game, good on you. So far, I can count on one hand the number of characters I've interacted with that leveled pretty darn quickly (but not in a week) and express that kind of depth while leveling/at low level, and have fingers to spare.

But, I do have a fundamental belief that the more experiences a character has while leveling the more the player can call upon.

Indeed, but "experience" does not always have to equal "body count".

[Phantom Lamb]

Folks, let's please not get into attacking play styles. How you play is how you play - enjoy yourselves however you deem fit!

My concern in this thread is balance. I agree that perhaps a cap on red kills is not necessary - they are few and far between. It's the routine kills giving high XP amounts that really need addressing.

Ultimately the code would be adjusted by GBX, so I'll try and get his ear. I think a scaled cap - stricter on whites, not so strict on reds, etc. - may be the way to go.