Things that Drive a Sundren Player Crazy!

[Phantom Lamb]

Those who know me from long ago know I can be... a hardass, to put it nicely. I'm a Helmite, who sees all and judges everything by the law, often without thought to the reason behind it. I see a lot of little nagging things that drive me crazy.

As a player, I've noticed a lot of trends in the populace. For new players and old, I present to you the living, growing thread of "Things that Drive Sundren Players Crazy!" At least, this Sundren player. Please add your own, debate, and discuss. It may seem negative, but there is a good community here. And I think having an open discussion about what the community likes and dislikes is good. Note that some of these items ARE against the rules... but I've seen them recently. I am not going to rat anyone out. But if you want to debate an item I'm listing, you might want to check if it's a server rules first or not



1) Twinks
A level 3 character in mithril full plate with enchanted weapons is a good example of a twink. Cmon dudes... what ever happened to enjoying a challenge? Speaking of which...

2) Ushering Characters through Levels
"Hey tag along, level 4 guy! We're going to Argyle Keep. It'll increase our overall bonus... just stay invisible and you'll get tons of gold. If anyone asks, we had some good RP discussion that validates this... no, really, we did." Or, a less popular form, "Hey buddy, I'll sell you ten level 20 buffs for 100 gold. Nevermind, that if we were really trying to RP, we'd see spell components for this are way over 100 gold... and nevermind that I'm a Thayan businessman. I'm just trying to be nice, even if my character is a bald bastard."
Challenge yourself! People put time into balancing these places out. Gaming the system, and wrapping it in a thin layer of RP BS, is lame.

3) Abusing Dump Stats
There is ongoing debate about if you should have dump stats at all. We all have different rules of thumb. But if you do have the stat dump, play it as such. Recent rants in another thread show the frustration.

4) Frozen in Apathy
"There's never a DM online for me to do anything."
"My character can't find anyone his level."
"My gosh, I'm just captivated by campfires. Let's have a beer... every day, all day..."
Go play the Sims! Cmon, come here for fun! Plot and scheme. If your character isn't a plotter, hire yourself out, make yourself the patsy, w/e. Find ways to create stories!

5) I'm NOT OK with Losing to Anyone but a DM!
So you're a high level hero in Sundren. You have levels, and you have stats, and you have a flaming +8 vorpal hankerchief. And someone puts thought into scheming around you, finding a plot that might carry weight... eh so what. I don't need to go along with it. Winning > story!
Also known as...
I lost in PVP, but my character has just regained consciousness. I know these two dudes here that beat me type slower than snails... let me use my boots and teleport away immediately! Winning > story!
Two things I've seen in recent times. Made me sad face.

6) Gaming the System
"It's perfectly clear to me the staff has done everything to move rest areas as far away from fighting areas as possible. What-evs. Argyle Keep, Wall of Fire X 8, leave. Rest. Come back ten minutes later. Rinse, repeat. Level 15 here I come!"
Clearly, you're not an e-athlete. Well, clearly there is no such thing, but you get the point. Developers design these to give you a challenge. They put time into the systems. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

7) It's Just Me
Nothing drives Gamling crazier than people who role play themselves. What he means is, the character is just a mouth piece for the players real life opinions, OOC knowledge of Fearun, and anything else. An IC argument with any of this persons characters will often desolve into 4th wall breaking, nerdy come backs until they finally emote *Laughs at the idiot* and walks off/logs out before anyone can reply, because they don't want to be incorrect or their character being beaten/wrong.

[Gamling]

Nothing drives me crazier than people who role play themselves. What I mean by that is the character is devoid of any personality but is just a mouth piece for the players real life opinions, OOC knowledge of Fearun and anything else.

An IC argument with any of this persons characters will often desolve into 4th wall breaking, nerdy come backs until they finally emote *Laughs at the idiot* and walks off/logs out before anyone can say anything because they can't handle being incorrect or their character being beaten/wrong.

Everyone knows people like this.

[sonuvalich]

Actually as a rebuttal to Point 2, and as the only Thayan currently selling buffs to people, 10 buffs for 100 gold is ridiculously underpriced, even for hyperbole. I think 25-50g per spell is reasonable enough, unless the spell has an expensive material component. But most spells do not cost anything to cast, even with P&P rules. To quote the 3.5 PHB "Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible." (pg. 174) DDO, however, did make you buy material components and carry them around and it was a pain in the ass. The PHB does have suggested prices for spellcasting services from NPC's, but given Sundren's unique economy I find them to be pointless in-game, and 50g for any generic spell seems reasonable.

I have a very different opinion of rest areas (surprise, for a pure caster!) in that I see level 18-20 melee types who need a few persistant buffs and then can solo their way through HORDES of monsters, whereas I can do almost nothing after blowing my spells on bare minimum survival. Yes, wail of the banshee will clear an area (at a cost) but I can do that maybe twice and then I'm out of spells and pretty much useless. The pre-mentioned fighter can just chug a few cure pots or use some bandages and then is good to get back in the game, I have to run back across the world, rest, rebuff, and repeat. I get that the greater issue is that people should not be grinding away at xp like an MMO, but it seems to be heavily melee-oriented even for brief encounters.

As a supporting example to that, if RP turns hostile, all a melee has to do is equip his sword and start stabbing me repeatedly in the face, whereas I would be sitting there with my 12 AC and a dumb look on my face. People get very suspicious IC if I'm walking around visibly buffed out the ass, expecting I am about to start trouble. I vote that all RP be done in nudist colonies with weapons checks and anti-magic zones! The meatsuits could still punch me to death but at least I could run and cry for a bit!

[Phantom Lamb]

I do agree the pendulum has now swung too far back to help melee over casters. That's what happens with adjustments.

The illustration about the buffs was, it is thin (at best) RP wrapped around trying to be nice. I won't preach about how a Thayan should behave; this is only a minor grievance I have, and it sounds like of a personal level only. I don't think others share it.

But mainly, along with the cast / run away / rest / return issue (which is against the rules ), these things are a way to get around the challenges in place by the designers. That's the chief point for both, I guess.

[Mournas]

One thing really bugs me is the changes to fighters. Granted they really needed some buffage as they were a little underwhelming but scoring crits well over 100 on as easy of a roll as 13-20 is a little broken to me. Who wants to play a Wizard when your spells are so gimp that the saves are easily made. Then people cry about "Practiced spell caster exploitation" When the best thing that comes from it is possibly getting 23rd Caster level for a +1 to Spell DCs. Wizards should be feared at 20th plain and simple when people walk around with Natural saves well into their 20s then chug a few potions and now they have to roll a 1 to fail their saves. Oh also with all the new Potions and items flying around like white nose candy who needs a Wizard when you can just chug an unlimited number of Potions.

Maybe make an addiction table and limit the number of potions you can drink at a time ... surly all those magical components being slugged down and mixing together would combine to have some sort of side effects or unexpected effects.

[Peridan]

One thing really bugs me is the changes to fighters. Granted they really needed some buffage as they were a little underwhelming but scoring crits well over 100 on as easy of a roll as 13-20 is a little broken to me. Who wants to play a Wizard when your spells are so gimp that the saves are easily made. Then people cry about "Practiced spell caster exploitation" When the best thing that comes from it is possibly getting 23rd Caster level for a +1 to Spell DCs. Wizards should be feared at 20th plain and simple when people walk around with Natural saves well into their 20s then chug a few potions and now they have to roll a 1 to fail their saves. Oh also with all the new Potions and items flying around like white nose candy who needs a Wizard when you can just chug an unlimited number of Potions.

Maybe make an addiction table and limit the number of potions you can drink at a time ... surly all those magical components being slugged down and mixing together would combine to have some sort of side effects or unexpected effects.

Whoa, whoa. Let's take this one bit at a time.

Potions and items have always been around for melee players to use. They just needed a caster (and they still do) in order to get them. They still have to pay, as well as deal with the fact that the buffs never last as long as a mage's.

Secondly, there are two weapons that allow the kind of crit range you're talking about. And I guarantee that player did one of two things. Either spent a ridiculous amount of feats for weapon master, or went a pure fighter route. Both of which are not easy things to do solo, despite the supposed power of the class. And if done in a group, well, that's a good thing.

Finally, saves have not been adjusted at all, ever. The only PC's who have all around great saves are paladins, which is supposed to be a class feature (they have a feat that enhances it).

I understand the reasoning behind the apparent dislike of melee characters, but it's misplaced. Before the changes (what few they were) to the classes (rogue and fighter only) and to the faction items, and the rest rules, spellcasters were easily the most powerful classes on the server.

This, however, was an artificial dominance. Spellcasters are not meant to be able to cast every ten minutes. Fighters are supposed to be good at killing things. They still have blatant weaknesses, but they are the ones the class was intended to have, not the ones the artificial environment of NWN2 gives them. Clerics, wizards, druids, all are not supposed to be very powerful, all the time.

I don't want to derail this thread, so I suggest we move it to another one if anyone would like to continue this conversation. But I think that spellcasters are just having to work for their place in a party and in the supposed 'power ranking' that people assign certain classes, as opposed to being able to exploit the flaws in the game that NWN2 provided.

[Phantom Lamb]

While I agree the pendulum swung too far for fighters, I was hoping to keep this to the scope of "community," rather than server. Things we see other players do that ... tweak you. Things we as a community can control and change.

...like abusing Privateer books...

[Lugwy]

I wasn't about to say anything because I prefer to read these kinds of threads than reply, but the DC of the post Mournas wrote was too high for my Will save to handle.

One thing really bugs me is the changes to fighters. Granted they really needed some buffage as they were a little underwhelming but scoring crits well over 100 on as easy of a roll as 13-20 is a little broken to me.

Only more impressive in PvE than PvP. In order to score a critical:

1. You have to roll high enough to threaten,
2. You have to be able to hit the opponent with that roll, and
3. You have to roll again and "confirm" the critical.

There's plenty of places to muck the process up. If you've got a high enough AC/concealment/mirror images/disarm/etc., the fighter has to beat that, either by turning off (Improved) Power Attack (bye, 100+ crits), glug/UMD buffs to meet it (bye, moneys, skill points you probably wanted to spend elsewhere besides UMD), resisting/avoiding disarms (if disarmed, bye, weapon and critical profile) and most of all hoping for a good dicebag. That sexy critical profile means nothing if the RNG rolls below threat or botches confirms when you need it!

Who wants to play a Wizard when your spells are so gimp that the saves are easily made. Then people cry about "Practiced spell caster exploitation" When the best thing that comes from it is possibly getting 23rd Caster level for a +1 to Spell DCs.

Spell DC is to casters what AB/AC is to melee--every point counts--but I am only aware of one melee type who can crank damage output high enough to instamurder a fellow as reliably as a caster can do with a sufficient DC.

Wizards should be feared at 20th plain and simple when people walk around with Natural saves well into their 20s then chug a few potions and now they have to roll a 1 to fail their saves.

If by "people" you mean "paladins"/"blackguards", then yes, this bit would make sense. If not...where can I sign up to have 20+ saves before buffs that doesn't involve being a paladin?

Oh also with all the new Potions and items flying around like white nose candy who needs a Wizard when you can just chug an unlimited number of Potions.

Potions cost money, especially if commissioned. A strategy involving chugging at every encounter--or more often--is a pretty effective strategy to frequently recouping losses that vastly outweighs the scope of the challenge involved, especially since potions aren't as strong nor as long-lasting as the equivalent given by a caster. Easier to dispel, too, and that's not mentioning getting RP-jacked while buffs are ticking away.

Maybe make an addiction table and limit the number of potions you can drink at a time ... surly all those magical components being slugged down and mixing together would combine to have some sort of side effects or unexpected effects.

Potion drinking is throttled by cost (as pointed above) and that you can only chug once per round--a round you're not spending turning your opponent into giblets. The side-effects thing is intriguing, and it would make sense regarding improperly brewed potions (buyer beware the fellow not skilled in brew-fu) and the really powerful/expensive mass-produced potions. For an example of the latter, Potions of Heal can come with a debuff, such as a negative modifier to stats or slowed attack/movement speed for a temporary duration that resets/stacks the more you chug to make it more in tune with its status as an "oh snap" button, and it can have an RP justification as shock due to receiving a pretty big kick of healing in potion form.


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...*takes a deep breath*

Okay, on topic. What drives a Sundren player like me crazy?

It's people not asking for clarification/explanation/so on when they are unsure about something regarding me/my character. I sometimes have a density between lead and really dense lead, so I appreciate a good poke, even if I sound grumpy at that time. Better to know where we stand than assume and end up in totally different dimensions and wonder what the shenanigans is going on.

[Phantom Lamb]

Locked it myself. Shouldn't have done this in the first place, it was trollish. Saw too much cheating lately and it esploded mah hed.