PvP my views and such...

[Eternal Serf]

I've noticed that some Drow seem to hunt in packs with someone invisible or in stealth mode scouting for them. One can only assume that they are hostile to their PC when they are running around (literally) in such a manner. Also letting them get close to your PC opens you up to a mobbing with backstab attacks and such. So attacking them on sight when they are sprinting around in such a manner seems like the logical thing to do.

Sadly, this isn't how PvP is supposed to work (according to the PvP rules anyway) as I'm supposed to wait for the Drow to surround me..intimidate me, do all sorts of nasty RP'ing and then I'm supposed to get swarmed by them and laid out like some sort of sacrifice to some spider loving goddess or something or taken prisoner or whatever.

In the wild west if you saw an Apache hunting party you either lit out for the hills or opened fire with your Winchester, or your scalp wound up decorating someones tipee.

I can understand why some lower level Drow characters feel harrassed, especially when they move through some of the chokepoint areas of the world and players take it as an opportunity to attack/harrass them, but out in the 'wild' areas with them obviously on the hunt I think they should expect to be attacked on sight by some folks, or see them run away, especially since they have deemed that player 'Hostile' as soon as he entered the area (meaning that they are obviously watching the player roster to see if any victims enter an area).

Perhaps a player should only deem another hostile when they both can see each other...

Or perhaps as soon as someone is deemed hostile they either send a Tell saying 'I'm hunting you' or 'What are you doing?' to find out what is up with the other player. I think this should fall upon the person going hostile first, to offer an explaination. Even if its just 'We're hunting'.

Most times I've been attacked I haven't seen any other players, but have noticed 3-5 people deeming me hostile. No tells, no explainations, nothing, then I see a group running towards me...should I attack? Or run? Attempt to roleplay or just fight? This causes a lot of problems for myself and others I've talked to as we want to RP, but by the same token don't feel like having to sit around for 4 minutes watching our corpses grow cold...

Perhaps having some new areas for the Drow and other 'evil' folks to start from might alleviate these problems. Say an Underdark outpost or abandoned graveyard or something that they could use as a starting area, with its own routes to various areas of the world. Heck it would be a lot of fun to go adventuring in these areas with folks from another faction. I also think it might make things easier on new PC Drow as they won't have to come face to face with hostile players as soon.

I played on PvP servers that had tokens for the various factions (these were awarded by the GM's or in some cases by doing quests). These tokens made guards of the other factions attack your PC on sight, which was fun when 'evil' folk would come to outposts and such and have the guards chase them off. It worked the other way too as 'good' folks were run off by guards around the other factions outposts. We would stage raids into these areas on quests and such and it was a lot of fun, it also allowed DM's to create quests that had players on both sides of the event doing things both for and against each other. We also wound up making deals with 'evil' players to have them save people for us as we couldn't enter their towns without alerting the watch, but they could..for a price.

I'm really enjoying this world, but I have noticed a high percentage of 'evil' races kicking around on it. This isn't neccessarily a bad thing, but, it will create problems as players will respond to them in ways that will not make everyone happy. If you get my drift.

[GodBeastX]

Alright, first, I have been tracking statistics since last night (Logs all sorts of character info and gives me pretty charts ^_^). From 10PM last night to tonight. There has only been 8% of the population as Drow. Some of which are not hostile Drow, so about 5% are hostile Drow. There's not a high percent of evil by any means.

You are not required to RP 'extensively' an encounter. By this I mean going into a deep and long conversation before cutting someone in half. If you see a group of Drow, simply going:

"If you get any closer I'll attack!"

or even

"I see Drow! To arms, to battle!"

We don't want silent ganking on the server, but RP need not be overly drawn out.

Also, there is a Drow outpost in the server.

"Huh?! What?!"

Yep. Where do you think the Drow get their equipment and such if they havn't been in the towns?


The harassed Drow have no complained about being killed overly much. They get attacked more than you know. The problem is some people have taken it upon themselves to try to "Win".

Win is when you feel death might come if you obey rules so you toss them out the window so you can be sure to be the one standing. Or winning can be beating the other guy without a chance to escape so you pull wicked methods out. For example:

All of the following is Emoted out.

Player A runs up and puts a Knife to player B's back.

Player B emotes quaffing an invis potion, then 10 seconds later drinks it. Giving player A a chance to mess with the action.

Player A swings to attack, and player B runs off to escape.

Any problem with this? No.

Player A however complains that the attempt to subdue Player B failed and now plans to Kill (with no RP) Player B when they see them.

This is the spirit of "I have to win!" that we, as the DM team, are pretty much sick of. Yeah, put effort into the conflict, but don't get obsessed with the victory.

Worst thing you could possibly due is return griefing with griefing. If you see four Drow run around the corner, cut you down, and run off? Then we, as DM's, can deal with them. If you respawn, gather 5 people, and do the same thing to them, then what are we supposed to do about this?

I can promise you though, the Drow already know "Someone is going to kill us, it's just a matter of when." And expect it. However, there's no need to go way out of the way OOC'ly to accomplish it.

"The Drow logged in, let me get a search party. Okay, OOC Search tool, there's people here, let's check there. No? Okay, let's go here... hah! Found them! OKay, hostile set, running in. Wail of Banshee scroll. We win!"

The above is why there were complaints from the Drow. None of them are complaining about dying

Also, the faction system is well under way to being finished. When it is done, many NPCs will hate Drow too. So you have nothing to worry about with tokens and such.

[Belwas]

Good stuff!

Adds a whole new element of RP and tactics to the server, you actually have some fear when you travel alone.

[Poor_Otis]

Good to be sneaky then, eh?

[Zoberraz]

All of the following is Emoted out.

Player A runs up and puts a Knife to player B's back.

Player B emotes quaffing an invis potion, then 10 seconds later drinks it. Giving player A a chance to mess with the action.

Player A swings to attack, and player B runs off to escape.

Any problem with this? No.

Player A however complains that the attempt to subdue Player B failed and now plans to Kill (with no RP) Player B when they see them.

This is the spirit of "I have to win!" that we, as the DM team, are pretty much sick of. Yeah, put effort into the conflict, but don't get obsessed with the victory.

What about the in-character rationale, GodBeastX?

We've had rumors of drow elves going about and killing people, plus stringing them in gruesome positions and other stuff. 'Bad things' have been happening to some players whom actually recovered from death, having to puzzle out why they died. Drow have been putting fire to the forest, rotting trees with their magic and stuff like that. Not to mention some happen to be wearing the very same armors as the drow whom raided the festival a way back.

I could go on. Point is we have little reason to let drow fight on their terms while we could fight them on ours.

A character meaning to get into a battle with someone will want to win - this doesn't have just to do with player motivations. If someone has a bow, he'll try to stay at maximum bow range and use it instead of crossing to chat distance. If a rogue wants to initiate a battle, he'll go for sneak attacks for starters.

If I take Maia, for example, she goes around and ruthlessly plinks arrows at gnolls and goblins. They aren't any less enemies than drow elves in her eyes. Is Maia's tendency of wanting to win her battles against goblins with as little fuss as possible bad? Would the same be so for drow? Especially when them drow, when given the chance, slip away with magical potions - next time, wouldn't you not give the 'monster' the opportunity to slip away?

...If someone considers that 'fishing out a vial and quaffing it' is RP, I could just the same way call 'nocks and arrow to a bowstring and lets loose' (which might not even be in chat range) or 'steps from the shadows and leaps to attack'.

Anyhow, I'd appreciate clearing up in this matter because just today I think I skirted the difference between roleplay and in-character stupidity (on Maia's part - letting drow elves get themselves buffed, seize the first attack and be stuck fighting from the beginning in melee and unbuffed while she was the one snooping on them was pretty dumb when she could just have jumped them while she had an advantage).

[Anauroch]

If I take Maia, for example, she goes around and ruthlessly plinks arrows at gnolls and goblins. They aren't any less enemies than drow elves in her eyes. Is Maia's tendency of wanting to win her battles against goblins with as little fuss as possible bad? Would the same be so for drow? Especially when them drow, when given the chance, slip away with magical potions - next time, wouldn't you not give the 'monster' the opportunity to slip away?

No problem in leaving the RP level at maximum if you are fighting monsters/NPCs.

The moment you are PVPing, you have to take the other players into account. Fun for all, that is the greatest goal - not the maximum RP level from the above example.

But:

Anyhow, I'd appreciate clearing up in this matter because just today I think I skirted the difference between roleplay and in-character stupidity (on Maia's part - letting drow elves get themselves buffed, seize the first attack and be stuck fighting from the beginning in melee and unbuffed while she was the one snooping on them was pretty dumb when she could just have jumped them while she had an advantage).

If you had the advantage and gave it up - ending up in melee from the beginning with them having buffed up front... well... I wasn't there but it does sound like either the drow were metagaming or that you indeed chose a rather... unclever approach to do some rp before attacking them.

Seriously - even if Maia is far away and up in a tree. Inform them OOC that she is there and hidden - and about to pluck them full of arrows, roll a hide check and finally start shooting at them. If they start buffing prematurely, screen shot it and post on the help forum - plus, either leave the area and the encounter or continue.

[InquisitorFury]

Why do I feel that this post is only here because someone lost a pvp encounter?

Facts are not right. This here is a great way to totally ruin and destroy some fantastic roleplay done by a variety of players done in a completely OOC fashion. If you dislike the way things were handled, then talk to the players. Work out a plotline, work out issues, DONT METAGAME. We are all here for a reason, that is to have fun. Losing is part of the game.. but come on! It's not permanent! You don't lose EXP, and we wont steal anything over 75 gold.

So?

[Zoberraz]

Well, initially, it just struck me after the incident earlier that day that I had to RP meeting the dark elves before confronting them - most of what Maia did then was probably out of that.

The thought struck me that Maia could have had very well not revealed herself and let them wander off. If she'd have had made the proper approach for a scout then she'd still have had gleaned useful information with them none the wiser. But she got the big head and decided to give them some of their medecine... only to find out why other elves had fallen to them before.

End line, Maia didn't expect them to have something at their disposal... got cocky and paid for it. Still, it yielded some pretty nice roleplay for Valens - as you can see in his 'A Falcon's Flight' thread... so it's all good. He got to be a hero and save the elfgirl. ~_^

Note: Maia is not casting divine spells until I have her regain a holy symbol in-character.

Over archery, you're right. I really don't seem to find no way better. This seems much less about roleplay though than about giving the opposing party knowledge that they will be attacked though.

edit: whoa, easy there Fury. I'm over it. I just want to know how I could apply my archery properly and now I sort of do. If the way to go is to stress interactive storytelling instead of the 'we against them' mentality, that's fine.

[InquisitorFury]

I'm calm.
This is just a growing trend.
I do not want to see it grow to large.

You also implied we metagamed. That was not so, as you have no idea what our drow were doing. Your death was orchestrated and planned... you just not know the specifics.

Also we did not set out to intentionally take your powers. This is the first news I have heard of this.

[Zoberraz]

The symbol you stabbed through and apparently kept was Maia's holy symbol. That makes it so that I decided that until she'd take the pains to make another holy symbol for herself that her spellcasting would be hindered by that - the Focus dependant spells. There's nothing sinister about it and its pretty much something I made up on my own to give Valens' action seem the more worthwhile. It likely isn't going to be something hard to recover from, but I did want to mark it.

I mean, come on, that 'A Falcon's Flight' thread just makes this seem all worth it, right? The guy went in there, got to save the elf chick and fight a battle against bad odds until only two were standing and on the verge of tottering over. regardless of who ultimately won, that was just epic.

As for the perceived slight, I won't excuse myself and will simply apologize. I have my reasons for expecting drow players to be underhanded because I saw it before - my mistake was putting the same judgement on you before any wrong was done.

[GDwarf]

In-char RP isn't needed, an OoC tell is all you need to tell someone that you could kill them soon.

Now, if people start buffing after you send that tell, that is metagaming, and should be dealt with.

[psycho1976]

In-char RP isn't needed, an OoC tell is all you need to tell someone that you could kill them soon.

Now, if people start buffing after you send that tell, that is metagaming, and should be dealt with.

Excuse me? NO RP prior to PvP? Personally I detest PvP but can live with it as long as it is with RP reason AND that it isn't the hit and run thing which I -think- you are describing there.

Without any RP you get the "I hate *insert race/class/persona*, I kill them on sight". Personally I find that way of thinking very selfish as the only one gaining in RP is the attacker, not to mention you never offer a way out of it as well.

We don't want silent ganking on the server, but RP need not be overly drawn out.

GBX wrote that..so basically you has to do -some- RP.

[Haroshia]

Gotta disagree with you on something...

Hating drow and killing them on sight is perfectly reasonable. I think NWN2 messed up by catering to the masses and making drow a playable race with every alignment. I am going to clarify this one time.

Drow are an evil race. They are not a poor persecuted peoples. They are a evil race no different from orcs, trolls, goblins, illithids, and many other things that are adventurer fodder. Yes there have been "good" aligned things in fiction from pretty much all of those races. No people do not hesitate to kill them on sight.

Only difference is Drow are allowed to be PCs, but it forces players to metagame and NOT attack them on sight. I understand the PvP rules, but honestly, if you don't want to get killed, don't play an evil race.

If you want the killings to go down, then maybe making the law against murder extend beyond city walls might be a good idea...just sayin...

[Skro]

The eternal problem of the PVP and who wins and lose, and the drow treathening.

Related to Drow's: I don't think any non-drow race may complain about treathening, because I experienced by myself a heavy treathening by the players of Overpowered difficult chalenge.
The drows and the non-drows make so many attemps to try to push a drow to attack, so, they can win the PvP, but in some cases is a un-loyal fight because they are 3 or 4 levels more than the treathened.
Personally I don't give reasons to be suspicious about me but they treathened, a lot of times I feel IC with the need to take my sword and fight with them because I has been pushed all my time loged-in, but this will be against the personality of the character.

Resuming: All the people who treaths are guilty of this attitude. If they only talks and tries to understand the other and not the agressive stance of "I-have-my-sword-in-my-hands-I-will-kill-you-drow"

Related to PVP:
Also I have experienced myself one PVP situation controlled by DM and nobody's was angry about.
Situation: 2 drows (Overpowered) vs. 1 drow (me). They bluffed my character, drags her fooled to a darker place. OOC they said "I will attack you". I acepted. They attack and I don't fight with all the equipment, because on RP, I don't have much time to equip a Heavy Shield and a Sword, so, I take my sword, but that was late.
Already know as a player since the moment of the bluff, what I'm destinated to die. But the fun of the RP is let your character introduce in that mess because the Player are not the Character.
So, I see ridicously the act of "Oh, I died, I will gather all my people and kill them, LOLZ", because it's Neverwinter Nights and not Lineage II. If you die, you will resurrected by the DM, because that was controled. Other different things is if a PvP has not been controled by DM and makes lose XP only for the joy of bothering, in some cases shielded in "Hey man, this is just RP".

[Haroshia]

IF you play a Drow, expect to be threatened, insulted, attacked, and killed a lot. I think it's not an unreasonable expectation. People giving them the benefit of the doubt and then going out and shooting random goblins in the head without talking to them first doesn't make any sense.

ALSO, I am not condining breaking the rules. At least send a tell to the Drow that you're going to kill them. Then make it so.