PrC Review: BG

[Dragor]

NWN Definition: "The blackguard epitomizes evil. Consorting with demons and devils and serving dark deities, the blackguard is hated and feared by all. The blackguard has many options available to them -- sending forth dark minions and servants to do their bidding, attacking with stealth and honorless guile, or straightforward smiting of the forces of good that stand in their way. Therefore, almost any class is suited to take the blackguard prestige class."

FRwiki Definition: "Blackguard, also referred to by some as the antipaladin, is a specialized prestige class on Faerūn that epitomizes pure evil. Nothing short of a mortal fiend, they are quintessential black knights, carrying a reputation of the foulest sort. Consorting with demons and devils while serving dark deities, blackguards are hated and feared by all. They usually lead legions of undead, evil outsiders or other monsters to conquer under their own guide. Occasionally guards might end up as wandering purveyors of chaotic destruction, attacking with honorless guile or flat out smiting the forces of good that stand in their way."

MY VIEW

I do not really know what else to say, these definitions are great.

The only thing would be to carefully consider the views of your diety before you use certain abilities a BG can use as not all dieties whose alignment options coincide with one that can unlock this class condone the use of all the abilities.

While this class "is" the opposite of the paladin class I also see it as so much more as the BG has none of the rigidity that a paladin has.

None of these class review threads have been locked yet and I'd take it as a kindness if it stayed that way, keep your personal grievences out of my threads.

Thank you

[GodBeastX]

I have to be honest, and I'm not trying to be mean or jerky, but there's tons of these review threads, and I'm not sure what the idea behind them is. I kinda like general discussion to be discussion of Sundren as a whole, but class discussions are filling up my screen O_O

So what's this all about?

[Dragor]

I have to be honest, and I'm not trying to be mean or jerky, but there's tons of these review threads, and I'm not sure what the idea behind them is. I kinda like general discussion to be discussion of Sundren as a whole, but class discussions are filling up my screen O_O

So what's this all about?

I wanted to see how other people RP'd the classes mostly, it has of course turned into class mechanics discusions, alignment discussions, grievence discussions, and etc. So since I am not actually getting the intended results from it I was seriously considerind ceasing and desisting the posts. Some of the earlier ones did give some good data though.

If you want I can stop or move to a different thread or a different forum, I'm easy.

Unless it gets bad I would like to continue some of these have actually completely changed my views on RPing certain classes.

[OnyxTigress]

Most people by now know Ruby, who is a blackguard of Colibrus. It's an incredibly fun class to rp. She's able to be a champion for her God, without having to be one of those pesky clerics or favored souls.

Mechanically wise, I'm very saddened with the class. The one and only good thing about it is the skeleton you get, and it's not even great until you get the 7th level in the class. I laugh all the time about the contagion ability you get, and the rat amuses me as well.

But yeah, since there is no actual anti-paladin, I've basically used this class to fill that void, since I pretty much consider Ruby to be the anti-paladin. If this class was made to be way awesome, I'd be over the moon.

[Snowmane]

This class seems like the "rabid dog" to me. A religious zealot that uses evil to destroy anything that it can indiscriminately. I have a hard time seeing it as anything more than a serial killer or a mass-murderer. I see it as someone who just wants to burn the world and dance in the flames.

Random PC: "Hello. How are you?"
Blackguard: "Much better now that I have a victim. DIE!!"

[Root]

Should be remade as Antipaladin. Making it a PrC is and always was a silly idea, leaving it fairly incomplete and weak in comparison to Paladins.

Depths of Norhaven have a pretty good system for antipaladins, but I dunno how much work it'd take to implement here.

As for the class in terms of RP, egh, I've rarely had good experience with them in NWN. They have to be the antagonist, and without a pet DM, said antagonist is forced into general acts of obvious evil resulting in either higher levels smacking them down, or lower levels knowing they can't really do anything other than kind of sit and allow whatever monstrous action is going on to continue without being able to do anything about it for threat of being smacked down.

(probably sounds spiteful considering I have repeatedly and on many seperate occasions ended up as the person trying in vain to do something about the threat and getting the obvious, guaranteed smack-down, but it's kind of a fact that the evil PC's don't have much else to do)

Big fan of the subtle evil, but this class kind of forces you into the stupid, obvious kind of evil that's better suited to DM-run BBEGs. Which, ironically, is a waste of what a DM can do.

[GodBeastX]

This class isn't a destroy everything class at all. It's a following to spread corruption. You're not nice about it, you're twisted, dark, or what not and you don't have time for anyone good. Consider, for example, a black guard who gets their powers from a Devil. Devils don't destroy everything, they very much like the world to exist, except under a sinful and tyrannical rule. They want people to live, give birth, die, and go to hell to feed them more power.

While a C/E blackguard MAY have that mentality, and I say "May" because even some C/E outsiders aren't out for that, I think you have to consider the other variations of evil too. And, also, it's QUITE possible for a Blackguard NOT to know they are a blackguard. Yes, it is possible for a Paladin to fall to a Blackguard and end up sponsored by an evil being without ever thinking they are anything but a paladin. This has happened in D&D before. Their mindset and ideals will likely be evil, but they might view it as evil for the greater good.

Let me give you an example. Helmites and Tormite faiths were at each other's throats in the past. Imagine that a Tormite decides Helmites need to all be obliterated to make room for Tormites to work freely. If other paladins and priests of the faith try to reason with him, he may view them as corrupted or blind and have no dealings with them. He will think his cause worthy because he still has his powers thinking Torm hasn't abandoned him, and he's walking around murdering the protectors of the people. This guy can very well be a blackguard and never realize it.

I think people should read into some of the source books that touch on the subjects of where powers like these come from. They give excellent ideas for playing things like evil from different viewpoints. Champions of Ruin, Lords of Destruction, Fiendish Codex II, Book of Vile Darkness, etc all have great ideas.

[Satoshi]

When I think of a singular 'Champion of Evil', my thoughts invariably are drawn to the Blackguard. It is at it's essence the Anti-paladin - a dark champion empowered by evil gods and evil beings to spread suffering, corruption, and destruction across the land. And while there may be countless types of villains, countless methods of evil to contend with, none of them resound quite as loudly with me as the Blackguard.

GodBeast's post has expressed everything else I would have said sufficiently, so I will just agree with him. If you haven't read those supplement books, you are missing out on an amazing resource not only for evil character ideas but for amazingly immersive and fulfilling encounters that could fill entire campaigns. Everything I know and love about writing about and reacting to villains I've gathered from the Book of Vile Darkness, Fiendish Codex 1 & 2, Champions of Ruin, and the Villain Design Handbook (from the Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign set).

Mechanically, the class does need some help. It suffers from the lack of translation of it's pen and paper spellbook, most notoriously Weapon of the Deity (the Holy Sword equivalent). Not having their ability to prepare Summon Monster/Undead and Inflict spells also hurts a bit, but not as deeply as the complete inability to use any of those spell completion effects on scrolls and wands.

[Torgar]

I've seen great RP by blackguards on the server, so no complaints there.

Mechanically, I think Obsidian screwed the pooch on blackguard. Replaced their spell list, which was the same size as a full blooded paladin and had many spells that were evil versions of the good spells (Corrupt weapon instead of Holy sword), and gave them...Bullstrength 1/day, Contagion 1/day, Inflict serious wounds 1/day, and Inflict critical 1/day. Oh, and all the DC's are super low. Yea, thanks obsidian. That's JUST as good as a real spell list...Oh, and can't forget coding smite good to only be given 1/day, instead of the 4/day by end of the PrC, like in PnP.

RP wise, they are great anatgonists, and I love it when a paladin and a blackguard meet, it's always an explosion of "My gods better then your god/OH yea!/Yea!/Eat sword!" which is always amusing to see. Just, you know, with the lack of a spell list and smite goods, the black guard loses. Pretty much ever time. Which hey, PVP losses not that big a deal, we just get up and move on with our day, But I do feel empathy for the people playing the class. That there are players who play this class, despite it's glaring deficiencies thanks to obsidian's laziness, simply because of the RP flavor of the class impresses me greatly. I've yet to meet the blackguard who didn't defend his faith to the end of time, to his/her last breath. (Or, till misting in the case of Grann/Ruby, didn't want to sound like a livist ((someone who is descriminating against those who don't live)))

Also, I HATE, and I do mean HATE!!!!, the term "Anti-paladin", simply because it always seems to transfer whatever hate people have to paladins, to blackguards. I can't really think of a BETTER term, but I just personally dislike the current one.

[Mournas]

I've seen great RP by blackguards on the server, so no complaints there.

Mechanically, I think Obsidian screwed the pooch on blackguard. Replaced their spell list, which was the same size as a full blooded paladin and had many spells that were evil versions of the good spells (Corrupt weapon instead of Holy sword), and gave them...Bullstrength 1/day, Contagion 1/day, Inflict serious wounds 1/day, and Inflict critical 1/day. Oh, and all the DC's are super low. Yea, thanks obsidian. That's JUST as good as a real spell list...Oh, and can't forget coding smite good to only be given 1/day, instead of the 4/day by end of the PrC, like in PnP.

RP wise, they are great anatgonists, and I love it when a paladin and a blackguard meet, it's always an explosion of "My gods better then your god/OH yea!/Yea!/Eat sword!" which is always amusing to see. Just, you know, with the lack of a spell list and smite goods, the black guard loses. Pretty much ever time. Which hey, PVP losses not that big a deal, we just get up and move on with our day, But I do feel empathy for the people playing the class. That there are players who play this class, despite it's glaring deficiencies thanks to obsidian's laziness, simply because of the RP flavor of the class impresses me greatly. I've yet to meet the blackguard who didn't defend his faith to the end of time, to his/her last breath. (Or, till misting in the case of Grann/Ruby, didn't want to sound like a livist ((someone who is descriminating against those who don't live)))

Also, I HATE, and I do mean HATE!!!!, the term "Anti-paladin", simply because it always seems to transfer whatever hate people have to paladins, to blackguards. I can't really think of a BETTER term, but I just personally dislike the current one.

Agreed.

[ManUtd4Ever]

Yes. I have seen some great RP from this class. BUT, IMO they could be more little more OP to better match a Paladin. I am not talking about tipping the balance in favor of Evil.. merely making it more balanced.

[Saulus]

Only thing I would really like to see from the Blackguard is a spell to create an unholy avenger temporarily.

[ManUtd4Ever]

Only thing I would really like to see from the Blackguard is a spell to create an unholy avenger temporarily.

Sure... nothing too OP, but something that is in keeping with the class.

[Seheren]

I love Black Guard. I have played several on this server, and for a while a Black Guard was the only char I played((The original Verror Tehk)). I regret starting him over as a Cleric, because the RP feeling of the Black Guard Divine Champion is very appealing to me, and the new Verror was less of a challenge..

That said, I have to agree that there are a few things I wish the class could have. From what I understand the Spell book is out of the question, as well as having it a base class, but I think maybe adding Extra Smite feat part way through the class would help. The smiting is capped at 10, and does not stack with DC like Paladin smite evil, is this something that can be changed? Also, on the note of adding a Holy Sword like ability. Is it possible to change a few of the spells? Adding just a few little 1/day buffs could make a difference, even if the caster level is capped at 10, and you cant meta magic.

[Root]

And, also, it's QUITE possible for a Blackguard NOT to know they are a blackguard.

Don't they have to have friendly contact with an evil outsider (ie. a devil or a demon) to become a blackguard?

I think at the point you're in league with demons you can't really justifiably claim to be good any more.