Hypothetical Question

[Delexos]

Well..yes.. but I cast my vote in haste before truly weighing up the options and considering all of the possible angles. I certainly would not feel bad about rolling back the level cap though. So I guess im rolling as Impartial Good.

[ManUtd4Ever]

IMO it is all relative.

If the cap is 20th level then anyone who is ~18th level or higher would be considered OP. If we lower the cap to say 15th level to remedy this then the same applies to ~13th level or higher.

Now that the level cap is gone... folks are able to go from zero to hero in a couple of days/week. So in no time everyone is 10th, 15th, or 20th level. What is the point and where does it stop?

Cheers!

[GodBeastX]

I cater to the majority, not the minority. The harsh level caps were affecting three things:

1) People's willingness to join the server and stick around.

Hard to look up at the top of a mountain with a desire to climb and find balls and chains on your legs.

2) People's willingness to start NEW characters.

"I just spent months getting here, only to start over and be bitch slapped around again."

I've noticed a lot more people making new characters lately

3) Hassle of balancing the capping system

There was just no good way to balance it and have it work for casuals and hardcore players alike.


Personally, I don't care if people go 1 to 20 in five minutes. What I do care about is economy, item scaling, difficulties of areas, reputation gains and more.

Level 20 was something everyone was going to reach anyway, so slowing it added what in reality?

It's also easier for us to focus on endgame content and such if everyone is at endgame. If you have 200 people logging in that are all level 20, what level do you think your next changes should cater to?

With the new encounter system, I had considered putting in scaling of encounters to level 20 so end game people could go to many of the major locations in sundren that weren't originally designed for level 20. Or maybe extending these dungeons to have level 20 parts to them.

In the end though, the only reason I would love to have had everyone on the server be at level 10 range is we could have stuck with the D&D scale for the world. However, we can't with the number of 20s we already had. I tend to view level 20 in Sundren as level 8 in the D&D scale.

[BattlePixie]

*thumbs up to GBX and his post*

[nezzerscape]

Hello there...
Might I add that if you are going to de-level toons you should allow then to be rebuilds. If one is building a character concept based on skill sets but chose to gain those skill set later will get screwed.

Taking WM at level 10 would be pointless...
Taking SD at level 10 would be pointless...
Going for AT might not make any sense...

If you are going to lower the cap (which I like) I think it would be best done with a vault dump... Having a sword/armor/staff made for a level 20 in the hands of a 10th is a bit silly and goes along way against the "low magic (item)" world.

Just my 2 cents,
Nez

[Torgar]

I've played pure casters and pure melee, now both past level 15 thanks to hard work done on my pure barbarian, and I can honestly say, a melee class with good gear is actually a fairly decent match for a caster. I took out an equally leveled enemy caster one on one. Because as a melee, I hit really hard and so in turn, hit HIM very hard. The addition of better gear greatly helps bridge the gap of power far better then lower levels will, because most magic gear doesn't appreciably help pure casters nearly as much as noncasters. Take for example, two fifteenth level people, a caster and a fighter. We'll go cleric for this example, because I know all the cleric buffs by heart on sundren.

Fighter: +1 fullplate, +1 weapon, +2 ring, +1 shield, +1 dodge boots, +2 nat armor ammy.

Final Fighter AC:28 with heavy shield, 30 with tower. AB is around 24/19/14 with his best weapon.

Cleric: +3 fullplate(vestment), +3 weapon(GMW), +4 deflection(Shield of Faith), +3 shield(vestment), +1 dodge boots, +2 nat armor ammy(unless you have plant domain for barkskin, then it's +5, but we'll ignore that).

Final cleric AC: 34, 36 with tower, and an AB with combat buffs of around 28/23/18 and that's only really with divine power, trying to keep the example a bit easier to see.

Now, a 15th level fighter on a server with the gear more generously distributed, can look almost exactly like that cleric does, with all his buffs. The cleric can look similar, the only difference he didn't cast spells to get those bonuses, same as the fighter. Next example.

Fighter with magic gear for his level: +3 fullplate, +3 weapon, +3 shield, +3 ring, +2 dodge boots, +3 nat armor ammy.

Final fighter stats with magic: 35, 37 with tower shield, AB is 27/22/17, margin for error +/- 2 points.

Cleric's gear: +3 fullplate(no spell), +3 weapon(no spell), +3 shield(no spell), +4 deflection(shield of faith), +2 dodge boots, +3 nat armor ammy.

Final cleric stats with magic gear: 36/38 with heavy/tower shield with an AB of....28/23/18, same as before.

Now, I know what you are thinking. "Torgar my good chap, if we simply bring the level cap below 15 further, down to 10, then all those silly numbers you so graciously showed us are much lower, so they are still more even, good sir." And yes, that is technically true, if you keep lowering the level cap lower and lower, eventually everyone is equal. Because eventually, we aren't really that different from commoners.

That's right, commoners. If we lowered it all the way down to 5, eventually someone is going to look and go "Hey, why don't we just lower the cap to 1, that way everyone is completely even" And then we might as well just be in a chat room, instead of playing a game with our friends. Because in the end, that's what Sundren is for us, we're all (mostly) friends with one another, in one way or another. I'm friendly with a lot of you on the server. I don't really get upset when one of my friends is stronger then me, I"m happy for them.

I'm like "Golly gee willikers, my buddy got a +3 sword of awesomeness, with +5 coolness. Good thing he's on my side" Or, if i'm evil, I go "Well, I know who I'm IC not going to make mad enough at me to hit with a +3 sword of awesomeness with +5 coolness." And if it's a OMG SUPER OVERPOWERED CASTERZZ!(heh) and they keep beating me in PVP because of their buffs, I say "Wow, someone actually took a lot of effort to learn their class enough to know the proper wards to prepare to protect themselves and win in PVP, good work"

I habitually fight folk with far better gear then me, or are these OP clerics, heck, I've fought people who are both at the same time. In the end, I don't mind they will ALWAYS be better then me, because of this one simple fact that is true in real life and DND.

There is ALWAYS someone better then you. Life is not fair, so stop trying to make it out like it should be. It is NOT fair.

Anyone who's fought the good fight has, at one point, fought Vigilator Clive Tarsis, the baddest vamp this side of bad-ass town. He's the most epic cleric around, the most epic vampire around. All together, with his well earned Black hand gear and event gear, he's probably the scariest PC villain the server has ever had, or will ever have. At full buff, I've seen him take out eight to ten people, all high level. Know what else? I know a paladin who beats him almost every time they fight, by himself. That's right, a pure melee. Want to know why? Because his equipment is comparable, so their power is comparable.

Both epic, one a cleric with full cleric buffs of power, one a paladin with just what he's got with him, maybe a draconic might, and the paladin wins.

This example is from a very, very specifically built paladin, who's charisma wets the thighs of Sune herself. So sure, maybe not every paladin will be able to do the same, but with similar gear, it would be close, every time. So yes, lowering the cap would equal us, but why do it that way? Why punish the people who already worked hard on achieving a higher level of power? Why lower their gear as well? A lot of that was very hard work, or important event items.

We have a larger number of level 20's now. Good. I say get everyone to the big boy table, give them the big boy guns, and then we'll see what happens. Some of the best RP I've ever had the pleasure to see or be part of was from opposing level 20's staring off at one another, neither side wanting to engage in the battle that would obliterate one side for sure.

Long rant aside, my basic point is this: Don't bring down the few who were willing to work for the prize, help bring up the many who want the prize too. We should all be working to BETTER our characters, not work on tearing down someone else. Ask any rogue on the server who's dealt with Tigen. Aren't you happier you had to deal with someone who spotted that well, who fought rogues that well, so you had to learn to be better enough so that didn't happen? You got stronger because you dealt with something stronger. That can hold true for all of us. Strive to be stronger. I say open up high risk/high reward epic content. Those who deserve it will earn it, and those that don't will fail. That's just how it goes, but it's going to be more fun if we all are there to try then just seven of us. I've got a Shaman at the top, and I'll be damned if I don't always try my hardest to make sure as many people reach the top with him as I can.

This has been a Torgar long winded rant

[Kaizen]

Instead of, as Torgar said, looking for a way to roll back levels and gear of what many players have earned with time/dedication/not trolling, look for an alternative to change up the endgame.

To make it 'more fair' across the table at 20 you can put into effect some relatively simple restrictions:

Level 5 minimum for: Monk, Shadowdancer, Cleric

Limit a character to one prestige class.

Get rid of Favored Soul, Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep.

Get rid of those silly, silly wtf restrictions on Frenzied Berserker.

Cap normal, open to all gear at +2/+3

Cap faction gear at +4/+5

[ManUtd4Ever]

Kaizen = Righteous

[Jhickey]

Why do away with classes? That makes little sense.
But i do agree that open gear should be around +2/+3 and Faction around +4/+5 or the more specialized gear like the barbarian store.

[Kaizen]

Why do away with classes? That makes little sense.

If an 'even level field' is what is being suggested, then a few key classes need to GTFO because they are so grossly above the power curve that the only way to 'balance' the server is to get rid of them.

Some of the restricted classes are on the same level (dreadmaster, stormlord) but they are just that - faction restricted. The other strong PrCs are only 'too' strong when combined with FS (lol stormlord again, master of shrouds).

On a low magic server, classes like Favored Soul and the Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep only widen the rift in power difference between mundane and casters.

Which, from what I am reading and understanding, is what Sundren is trying to alleviate.

[Dragor]

I really think that before we all get too far into item and char rebalancing we should give GBX a chance to amaze us with an amazingly well balanced encounter system and then go from that foundation...trying to come up with ways to balance sundren based off how it is now is redundant based off the sheer volume of the coming changes that they have been teasing us with.

Also several people are taking this thread too seriously, we have to remember that Kangleton posed a "what if" scenario in the General Discussion thread, not the suggestion thread.

now some of my thoughts on some of the points brought up!

I love the idea of class specific gear, weather it be faction or no. In fact the entire rogue persona is about finding a way to get that 'edge' on your opponent, and it adds a wonderful amount of flavor to the environment.

I have lvl'd 3 cleric builds on this server, not just cleric builds, but cleric builds designed to dish out damage like a fighter. I have lvl'd them to 15, 15, and 11 and unless I have been given around a minute to a minute and a half un-molested to get the AC and AB buffs up my clerics would get dropped easily by a fighter and possibly a rogue, the entire key to dealing with casters is to hit them before they start casting. My SL can easily take out a melle based char 3-5 lvls higher than him for 3 minutes but after that he'll get squished.

Arcane Scholar doesnt even exist in FR, it is a bastardization of Archmage. It is also the class that gives wizards/sorc's a massive edge in PvP...the big three for arcane casters, Bigby's ASoCK and Energy Orb, all could do with a looking at, but also without these Arcane Casters are hampered in PvP, It's either OP or No Power. And Wizards are supposed to be some of the most dangerous beings alive

FS should be restricted, there are only a limited number of "Favored" for each deity so the class should remain massivly OP like it is, but it should be seen about as often as a warlock is. I definatly think RP is extremely important in playing a FS, as each one is supposed to be a rare and special person.

Despite the irony in Kaizen's statements policing the amount of lvls per class/PrC does help balance. However I have been and will remain opposed to restricting the flexibility of char building with something like one PrC per char

but anyway...lets see what GBX throws at us with this new encounter system before we start coming up with class nerfings and +5 faction items.

Strange...I seem to have run out of chocolate covered raisings...

[Kaizen]

cleric builds designed to dish out damage like a fighter.

Divine Power + Pers Divine Favor > Fighter. I won't even go into greater restoration, word of faith, aid, bless, GMW, GMV, prayer, battletide, etheral, regenerate, stonebody, freedom of movement, spell mantle, storm of vengeance .. shit, I just did.

these Arcane Casters are hampered in PvP, It's either OP or No Power.

It requires one level 6 spell to shut down every single class without a spell mantle, or someone immune to knockdown which is currently only ... a druid with Foundation of Stone up.

A freedom of movement will not save you from level 6 bigbys. Getting the first hit in might, though.

An Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep negates any chance of a first hit. It's an iWin button.

Despite the irony in Kaizen's statements policing the amount of lvls per class/PrC does help balance. However I have been and will remain opposed to restricting the flexibility of char building with something like one PrC per char.

Sundren has already done it to the Shadowdancer, and the Frenzied Berserker (lol 4 barbarian levels why?), I don't see the problem in placing this restriction on the more easy to abuse class choices.

Also, Kaizen is 10druid/10MoMF.

It's hard to restrict flexibility when you still have ~8 core classes to mix in, and ~20 prestige classes to choose from. A one PrC limit cuts back on super sayan power builds, and at the same time encourages lots o' levels in base classes.

but anyway...lets see what GBX throws at us with this new encounter system before we start coming up with class nerfings and +5 faction items.

Clerics and Favored Souls are already walking around with +5 weapons and +5 fullplate and +5 shields.

[Dragor]

Divine Power + Pers Divine Favor > Fighter. I won't even go into greater restoration, word of faith, aid, bless, GMW, GMV, prayer, battletide, etheral, regenerate, stonebody, freedom of movement, spell mantle, storm of vengeance .. shit, I just did.

Yes they make the cleric > than the fighter...the point I made however is if a fighter walks up to a cleric and starts hitting the cleric when the cleric has not had 3mins of buff time that cleric is going to die...

It requires one level 6 spell to shut down every single class without a spell mantle, or someone immune to knockdown which is currently only ... a druid with Foundation of Stone up.

A freedom of movement will not save you from level 6 bigbys. Getting the first hit in might, though.

An Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep negates any chance of a first hit. It's an iWin button.

Yes and I said these definatly should be looked over.

Sundren has already done it to the Shadowdancer, and the Frenzied Berserker (lol 4 barbarian levels why?), I don't see the problem in placing this restriction on the more easy to abuse class choices.

Yes and I was against the change to FB and EK when they were put in, If I had been playing when EK and SD were origionally nerfed I would have been against it then. I am all about modifying the environment to the players instead of modifying the players to the environment...

It's hard to restrict flexibility when you still have ~8 core classes to mix in, and ~20 prestige classes to choose from. A one PrC limit cuts back on super sayan power builds, and at the same time encourages lots o' levels in base classes.

I am a huge fan of the "You must have at least 4 lvls..." requirement. it would however require policing by ppl who would rather be running diabolically evil events involving Poo Faeries or Balors. I dont see limiting PrC's as discouraging Pwr Builds since the most powerful builds I have run across either have no PrC's or just one (FS, Pali/Sorc/EK, Monk/Druid/SF)

Clerics and Favored Souls are already walking around with +5 weapons and +5 fullplate and +5 shields.

I did not say we shouldn't have +5 weps, or that Magic Wep and Magic Vest shouldnt be nerfed, I said we should wait until GBX has the encounter system in place BEFORE we start asking for that.

I would actually be perfectly ok with nerfing the spells down to +4 and peppering Class Only stores with +4 items around...but I'm still asking that we wait and see what we're suggesting improvements too before we start suggesting improvements to it as the entire environment should alter when GBX implements his new system and PvE balance is several billion times more important to me than PvP balance

[Redjack]

Clerics and Favored Souls are already walking around with +5 weapons and +5 fullplate and +5 shields.

Have to correct this: +5 weapons yes, +4 armors and shields.

Why do we want all the classes balanced again?
While my cleric is very survivable in a fight. He can be painfully slow at killing NPC's. I really enjoy my melee character when he hacks things to pieces. For the really tough areas I just party up with a caster and I'm good, or better.

[Kaizen]

Why do we want all the classes balanced again?

lol good one.

On a more serious note, not suggesting a specific class balance. Just an overall balance and the removal of two game breaking ones.

Have to correct this: +5 weapons yes, +4 armors and shields.

AFAIK, the only other +4 shield in the game is the Centurio Tower Shield. That requres 100,000 rep (or whatever the last rank is. I kind of forget) to get and costs 110,000 gold.

So...