Hypothetical Question

[Jhickey]

I think that I would dislike the change, I think there are other verious ways to create balance. I would not be happy if one of my more played PCs was super nurfed, and the time I spent on them. That is just what I think.

[Dragor]

I feel like posting a long winded ramble so I figured this would be as good a topic as any to post it in. Personally I am against any level readjustment one way or the other (either opening up higher levels, or going back to lower levels). Since this is merely a discussion of what each of us think on the idea I will list reasons on each decision for and against the following: A lvl 5 cap, a lvl 11 cap, a lvl 15 cap, a lvl 20 cap, and a lvl 30 cap in the Sundren environment.

Lvl 5 cap: In the NWN environment lvl 5 is the first lvl where your basic casters begin to shine but are still too weak to arbitrarily take out melee characters.
Unfortunately this is nerfs the Sorc type casters beyond playability and rogues have not yet had a chance to get their skill points up to where they need to be, also any PrC’s can just be forgotten about
Final thoughts: While I think it would be a fun environment if the classes were limited to just your basic Wizard/Fighter/Rogue/Cleric the time it would take to implement would not be remotely “cost” effective. I however think that in an environment without Sorc’s, FS’s and Bards it is by far the most balanced lvl range from a PvP standpoint

Lvl 11 cap: At lvl 11 most spellcasters have all the defensive spells they are going to get and it allows for around 5 lvls of a PrC
In the Sundren environment however there was some massive hate done on several PrC’s by someone who shall remain nameless for the course of this discussion and unless the unusual and unnecessary added req’s were removed I don’t see this lvl cap being feasible.
Final thoughts: While a lvl 11 cap allows for more of a core DnD balancing feel it still wouldn’t be cost effective as around 50% of Sundren’s dungeons are for lvl groups higher than this also not being able to take a PrC all the way through is a massive downside for someone who likes to design and build char’s

Lvl 15 cap: At lvl 15 you see more of the DnD style balance and almost all char’s can have a PrC fully lvl’d out. Also implementing this would not be hard since only three(ish) dungeons would have to be changed. Unfortunately even at lvl 15 you are going to get the massive complaining that comes from most people regarding PvP balancing due to the fact that spell casters have access to the more powerfull spells at this point
Final thoughts: I can actually see this working, and as several ppl have mentioned this is how it was before my time here, however as I have mentioned I like to play for the character building more than anything and in another section of this lengthy post I will discuss my thoughts on balancing which will give further insight on why I think this would not be the best thing in the world.

Lvl 20 cap: At lvl 20 characters are fully developed and you can fully see the differences in the classes from the DnD balancing standpoint. A character can easily merge two PrC’s into his/her build and the spellcasters have access to the entire spellbook regardless of what class they are.
The only drawbacks are of course the hate some unnamed person put on certain PrC’s, and the overabundance of Cleric builds due to Sundren’s PvE balancing which I will discuss shortly

Lvl 30 cap: due to the way NWN and NWN2 handled Epic characters I think a cap higher that 20 (and I include the idea of ppl getting to lvl 21 on this as well) is a horrible idea, balancing for these lvl’s was thrown out the window by the game designers and in forgotten realms lore characters of this lvl are legendary throughout the world and having a valley full of them would be distasteful.
Final thoughts: When it was put out there by members of the staff that area’s would be opened up (maybe) that would give char’s a high risk opportunity to gain lvls past 20 without needing DM events I groaned inwardly and sighed in resignation. I do not like the idea of epic chars running around.

On balancing PvP: PvP is a major point of contention on this server due to the advantages certain classes have over other classes. I think the Dev’s took a big step forward on the pure class lvl restricted gear and I hope that course of development is continued. I also think that if more emphasis was put on finishing the new crafting system it would further shorten the void although I don’t think better gear that everyone has access to use is the answer. Also something that most people seem to forget about DnD, a lone wizard who is prepared can pretty much deal with anything short of an army, however since they cannot be prepared for anything at all times a small group of meleers can deal with a wizard if THEY are properly prepaired, what is causing everyone to complain is the number of spellcasters vs the number of meleers which leads me to…
On blancing PvE: PvE balancing is the biggest knock I have against Sundren since I have been playing here. I feel that most of the problems can be solved by subtle tweaks in the dungeons as well as dungeons aimed at being easier to certain classes and harder for others (like the antimagic dungeon). Also the idea of dispel traps was good but they were put in areas where a spellcaster cannot go alone very well anyway, and the “tank” always goes over them first and always either almost gets killed or gets killed, the AI’s are quite simply too strong in the higher lvl dungeons for very many unbuffed or barely buffed chars to deal with

Final Final thoughts: I think the proper course of action is the one the staff appears to be undertaking (aside from the rumors of opening up epic lvls) that the answer to most of the problems is class specific gear and PvE rebalancing, while I believe several spells that do not work in a balanced way should be modified (Bigby’s/Energy Orb) that really requires a review of the spellbooks and how each spell affects a melee class build. I also sincerely believe that the dark chocolate covered raisins I have been eating since the beginning of this article are very tasty and it would benefit any of you not allergic to some part of the mixture to acquire and consume some.

[rustediron]

I would like it, but seems to me that it wouldn't be much of a reward for the huge amount of effort that would be required to change the server so it caters better for those levels.

Equally, however, even if nothing were to change and the level cap simply rolled back I still think it that I would prefer it.

Though it's still cool as it is now, so meh

[BattlePixie]

level cap pure arcane and divine casters at 10ish, level cap melee types and hybrids to 13ish.

Though i'm not in favour of any deleveling or reducing the cap, just saying that not everyone has to be capped the same if it came about.

[Doubtful]

10 is a little low. Personally I was a fan of the old level 15 cap, it was certaintly easier in terms of balancing for parties. I'd rather have the hostile areas overlaping more in terms of level range (and morality range) rather than a wider spread of levels and more specific hostile zones.

That said, I don't think there will ever be a point where the level cap will be rolled back. Taking an action like that may seem a fine idea, but it would result in a dramatic loss of players, not to mention being very hard to sell ICly.

A roll back of levels would, as has been mentioned, also require a rollback of equipment, which would be a right pain in the proverbial. The only easy route to doing a dramatic shift like that would be a vault wipe combined with a viabe explanation - Jumping Sundren forward another 50/100 years might do it.

But of course a vault wipe is a quick road to an empty server.

[Doubtful]

10 is a little low. Personally I was a fan of the old level 15 cap, it was certaintly easier in terms of balancing for parties. I'd rather have the hostile areas overlaping more in terms of level range (and morality range) rather than a wider spread of levels and more specific hostile zones.

That said, I don't think there will ever be a point where the level cap will be rolled back. Taking an action like that may seem a fine idea, but it would result in a dramatic loss of players, not to mention being very hard to sell ICly.

A roll back of levels would, as has been mentioned, also require a rollback of equipment, which would be a right pain in the proverbial. The only easy route to doing a dramatic shift like that would be a vault wipe combined with a viabe explanation - Jumping Sundren forward another 50/100 years might do it.

But of course a vault wipe is a quick road to an empty server.

[07paul87]

I was looking at another server that has a level cap of 10, but allows character ability progression through feats at "level up." So instead of getting more HP/BAB at "level up," characters can select a new feat that offers a small increase in ability, without being super powerful.

I'm all for low levels, especially once I get back to the States.

[Mournas]

As has been stated, many times the Level cap of 15 would be awesome. I also think that the experience cap of 1 level per X amount of hours back in place would be awesome to reinstate to Halt people being able to go from 1-15 in a single day. It would however put a damper on some of the PrC, though those can always take a little tweaking and make them capable of a 15th level server.

Assuming the Cap would be a soft cap, maybe for those who are 20th can start above the soft cap at 16th level or so, but It could put some pain on Those characters that use a PrC such as MT, SF, SBS, AT. Characters should also be able to recreate their characters from level 1 up as certain character concepts would then also be altered.

[roguethree]

I also think that the experience cap of 1 level per X amount of hours back in place would be awesome to reinstate to scale back people being able to go from 1-16 in a single day.

I almost agree with you, but I think the removal of the cap is wonderful for the more casual players who don't have the same amount of hours to commit to the game as some of us. I look at the crazy fast leveling as a necessary evil in this case.

[Dragor]

I almost agree with you, but I think the removal of the cap is wonderful for the more casual players who don't have the same amount of hours to commit to the game as some of us. I look at the crazy fast leveling as a necessary evil in this case.

I actually look at it as a good thing, the best RP I have had has been in encounters while out 'grinding' and not standing around piddling away waiting for the lvl cap to go up. What ppl forget is the most used method of dealing with the lvl cap 1-12 was to leave your char in the vault for a few weeks/months then leave them in AFK until the lvl cap goes up once your lvl and cap meet back up. You have to remember this was only modified recently where you couldnt exploit the AFK room.

While it has been good for grinding out lvls I think it has also improved the server as the RP seems more genuine and encounter driven instead of the chat room feel standing at the Second Wind campfire had to it.

I dont perscribe to the grinding player shouldnt be interrupted philosophy like some appear to use (I've seen this too) encounter driven RP is just better, especially if it is confrontational.

[Delexos]

Quote:
I also think that the experience cap of 1 level per X amount of hours back in place would be awesome to reinstate to scale back people being able to go from 1-16 in a single day.

I almost agree with you, but I think the removal of the cap is wonderful for the more casual players who don't have the same amount of hours to commit to the game as some of us. I look at the crazy fast leveling as a necessary evil in this case.

I see what you did there... though I think it actually took a touch over 2 days in reality.

I'll add my own thoughts a little later when I get to work in about 2 hours.

[roguethree]

I also think that the experience cap of 1 level per X amount of hours back in place would be awesome to reinstate to scale back people being able to go from 1-16 in a single day.

I almost agree with you, but I think the removal of the cap is wonderful for the more casual players who don't have the same amount of hours to commit to the game as some of us. I look at the crazy fast leveling as a necessary evil in this case.

I see what you did there... though I think it actually took a touch over 2 days in reality.

I'll add my own thoughts a little later when I get to work in about 2 hours.

Fixed that for you.

[Delexos]

That was decent of you, it is good to be a member of the R3CG knowing that my brethren are there to help co-ordinate damage control when I make a post in error.

However I think the reality of the post should look more like:-

As has been stated, many times the Level cap of 15 would be awesome. I also think that the experience cap of 1 level per X amount of hours back in place would be awesome to reinstate to Halt people being able to go from 1-

16

in a single day. It would however put a damper on some of the PrC, though those can always take a little tweaking and make them capable of a 15th level server

I see what you did there... though I think it actually took a touch over 2 days in reality.

I'll add my own thoughts a little later when I get to work in about 2 hours.

To better represent the editing that both you and I made to Mournas' original post there.

Of course, so that I do not almost single-handedly derail the thread I will add my thoughts on the actual topic.

I originally voted for the "Good" choice in this poll, but I dont think the question is as black and white as either good/bad/dont care. There are so many variables to each argument that the hypothetical question becomes, at least to me, something much greater to consider.

People have mentioned the fact that de-levelling characters, especially those that have been around for a very long time, might be a sure fire way to decimate an already small community. Though some of the people who actually have high level characters have backed the idea so it is not entirely one sided. You only need to look at the spilt in votes so far to see the risk that rolling back the levels brings with it. What if those 11 people who have currently voted the idea as 'bad' simply up and quit. I dont think the server could recover or survive such a massive blow to the overall population.

Whilst I agree that bringing the server down to a 10 or 15 level cap would make balancing the game much easier for all involved I am not entirely convinced that this is even a good thing. The main argument I have seen and heard seems to stem around the fact that at higher levels the melee classes, for the most part, get left in the dust and the magic classes shine, what is wrong with that? Also understand that I am speaking as a player who primarily plays melee, only recently have I begun to tinker around with spell casting classes of one type or another.

Melee classes should be at a disadvantage, because they simply do not have the natural pre-disposition to be able to do what caster can do. Hell even at the very base level Melee classes rely almost entirely upon casters. Enchanted armour and weapons do not just simply grow on trees, they are created by the use of arcane or divine processes used by casters.

Magic in any form, be it divine or arcane trumps natural physical eveloution every time, because it is so diverse in its uses. A spell caster, especially in p&p can adapt and craft the weave to do quite literally anything imaginable. A physical body on the other hand is limited.

Also on a related subject, people have also mentioned the fact that with a roll back on levels the items will need to be redone, both the items currently avaliable and those carried on the plethora of characters in the vault. I am pretty sure that noone really wants a vault wipe, so expecting the devs to somehow be able to make the time to go through each and every character either removing or altering every magical item is just simply unrealistic.

There are a lot of changes coming, Saulus and the team have hinted here and there about what is potentially happening to the server. And I say we let them bring out the goodness, give us all time to experience the changes and adapt to them, then in a few months down the line come back and look at this topic and think "Is a level 10-15 cap really worth it?"

I still maintain that I would be ok with a level cap, so my vote technically still stands, but I would be just as happy to continue as it is.

[roguethree]

So you're impartial.

[Saulus]

Lots of speculation going on considering rest and death are going to fairly drastically change, which will also affect balance.

I think a lot of these discussions will be more relevant after the mechanics updates.