DM Activity

[Saulus]

If Wyntir estate is too easy I will put in a few more vampire elders with 10,000 HP.

[Lucidity]

Also, I'm tired of hearing about this Brigade or w/e it was. Maybe people didn't get involved because they didn't like it or weren't interested. It's not an example of people's lack of initiative. It's an example of you having an idea people didn't care enough about to become hyper-involved. Please, stop blowing it out of proportion.

This.

This is exactly it, Biohazard. This is what I was trying to convey to you in-game.

You're giving the appearance of "Oh, woe is me! Pity me for players' inability to interact with each other without the intervention of a DM!", but yet you keep throwing the Brigade out, like it is/was something to be proud of, like it somehow defied that issue, yet didn't because you gave up on it.

This post is not intended to place blame, nor cause any sort of an argument or flame war. I just can't allow you to orchestrate an illusory facade about your creation.

[Gamling]

*Hasn't seen an epic change IG that hasn't been orchestrated by DMs, or wasn't already planned from the beginning*

[[DM] Grinning Death]

These ideas are really good, and I'd love to see a server that had them. Unfortunately, this server isn't heading in the direction you're describing, Kangleton. The server that you describe isn't anything like the ideas and thought that went into the creation of Sundren.

Set factions play a key role in Sundren, because they're meant to provide a consistent set of groups for players to join. If others want to create a group within or without these set factions, I will do my best to support them as realistically as possible.

At the end of the day, this server and the people who contribute time and energy to it decide where it goes. Not because of a power trip, or a feeling of superiority, but because they are the ones that do the work in order for all of us to have fun on it.

And folks do have fun on the server, else no one would be here. I've seen crowds leave Sundren for other servers, and I've seen them come back. And truthfully, we'll be here to provide as much entertainment and intrigue as possible within the system as it stands.

There are problems, I'll agree. Are there easy solutions like the ones you've mapped out? I don't think so. Despite how easy it may sound on a computer screen, the changes you describe would alter the fundamental nature and purpose of the server. The amount of work to go into that, for free, would be more time and energy for developers that already devote massive amounts of effort to this server.

I appreciate your suggestions, I really do. Unfortunately, they aren't feasible at this time. In the mean while, I will continue to try and empower players as much as I can, since as you've stated DM's are necessary to the development of stories and progress.

I'll leave this thread open for the time being, provided folks keep their messages civil and respectful. Again, thank you for your input.

[Chipmunk]

I broke into the Wyntir Estate and killed all PCs and NPCs in there. Alone. Without a DM. Yesterday. I then went into the Citadel.

Do I own it now? No.

Also, I'm tired of hearing about this Brigade or w/e it was. Maybe people didn't get involved because they didn't like it or weren't interested. It's not an example of people's lack of initiative. It's an example of you having an idea people didn't care enough about to become hyper-involved. Please, stop blowing it out of proportion.

And creativity doesn't trump the DMs when you don't have the tools to act on your creativity. Shopping sprees, as per your example, aren't particularly exciting for many of us. We don't RP to do boring, mundane things. We want adventure and conquest and heroism, villainy, ethical dilemma, etcetera. Sure, we can creatively imagine these things, but they don't really happen without the DM; otherwise I would have imaginatively and successfully conquered the Wyntir Estate. But that had no effect.

I see my point is completely lost. We'll agree to disagree.

On a related note I'd recommend you read up on the principle of charity.

[Shedboy]

I get the impression that some of these posts are rather egocentric, (which is natural), but are based around differeing people's individual needs and style of play - all perfectly acceptable style, but perhaps not what the server can pragmatically offers. From what i am reading, high level IG changes and adventure is restricted.

The dm's have commented on what is realistic at this time and made sugestions that seem prety clear. Choosing to leave the server etc. because you want more / not to your tastes is understandable. We all outgrow things, move on. Threatening to move on .. got tickets on yourself there.

Things occasionally really piss me off too. But thats relationships and i know i cant have it my way all the time. Its not so terrible.

From individual points of reference, the dms / dev have the BIG PICTURE as well as numerous behind the scene plot stuff happening that us players are not privy too.

Online DnD is different from regular dnd (i.e. 1 dm to 4-6 players). On Sundren I expect there is a team and hierachy and it must be quite a task keeping up with player corespondence, dm corespondence, and not stepping on each others toes. Factor in planning time, build time and RL and there isnt that much time to go around.

While it is good practice to have the dm meet the players half way and work out a mutually enjoyable experience, in the end its their server, its not a democracy and we are their at their pleasure and generosity. Reduce the expectations and perhaps there will be more pretendy fun time.

On another note: Has anyone any amusing or chilling anecdotes about what happened to their character if they failed in a dm quest. If we want to get real about it, are people prepared to have their characters suffer serious setbacks, disability, disfugurement etc. From what i read, requests are "i want my character to do / take over "x" but without the possibility of failure or bad stuff happeneing to my character. How do players take that sort of stuff - not well i guess? Might be some of teh dm reluctance to progress those plots.

I can't comment of the free brigade- it seemed like a good attempt - did you get any honest feedback about why it was not taken up?

[Thief Of Navarre]

On another note: Has anyone any amusing or chilling anecdotes about what happened to their character if they failed in a dm quest. If we want to get real about it, are people prepared to have their characters suffer serious setbacks, disability, disfugurement etc. From what i read, requests are "i want my character to do / take over "x" but without the possibility of failure or bad stuff happeneing to my character. How do players take that sort of stuff - not well i guess? Might be some of teh dm reluctance to progress those plots.

Yeah players tend not to take defeat well, thats why DMs generally play nice and raise you if your killed. If you realised your paladin's charisma had suffered a hit from his horiffic scars and his mind nearly broken from being regularly on death's door you might not be so keen to have him raised ~ But then again a greater restoration cures any amount of disfigurement im sure!

I think we need to look after each other as players more. Sure we cant affect big plots without a DM but if we start doing the little things better we might stand a chance of affecting the bigger picture when the time comes. In that respect the brigade was a good idea as well as wangxiuming's character development volunteering! kudos.

[Root]

Just much less than people think. Creativity trumps DM Client.

So... How much can be done in the absense of DM before it becomes cheesing?

If I were to, say, claim that I'd headed up to the mountains, found a dragon, recieved a personal goal from it, and headed around performing this, would such be considered cheesing owing to having no DM approval?

Honest question, since I'm used to servers where any non-DM-approved action involving NPC's was thorougly disapproved of.

[Doubtful]

You can't speak for NPC's, though this tends to slide a little for commoners and atmosphere.

We also have a 'no dragons' rule for our DM team minimizing the use of stupendously powerful creatures, even with the god-mod rules removed this would extend to players.

On the other hand, there are ways and means. A character could quite conceivably have a vision, dream-quest, simple burst of inspiration or just think 'what would a big scary ass lizard want me to do?'

[Kaizen]

On another note: Has anyone any amusing or chilling anecdotes about what happened to their character if they failed in a dm quest. If we want to get real about it, are people prepared to have their characters suffer serious setbacks, disability, disfugurement etc.

I created Kaizen with 16 con about a year ago. After a few 'failed' DM 'quests', he now has a permanent CON of 8.

Eight points of permanent stat sheet damage.

.
.
.

I'm pretty sure I'm the first one in the history of ever to have this happen to their PC.
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hooraaaaaaay.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I created Kaizen with 16 con about a year ago. After a few 'failed' DM 'quests', he now has a permanent CON of 8.

Eight points of permanent stat sheet damage.

.
.
.

I'm pretty sure I'm the first one in the history of ever to have this happen to their PC.
.
.
.

hooraaaaaaay.

Its not like you use that con score most of the time anyway

[Biohazard89]

This.

This is exactly it, Biohazard. This is what I was trying to convey to you in-game.

You're giving the appearance of "Oh, woe is me! Pity me for players' inability to interact with each other without the intervention of a DM!", but yet you keep throwing the Brigade out, like it is/was something to be proud of, like it somehow defied that issue, yet didn't because you gave up on it.

This post is not intended to place blame, nor cause any sort of an argument or flame war. I just can't allow you to orchestrate an illusory facade about your creation.

I might have blown it out of propotions yes.

But it doesnt change the fact that we really did try to make people stop begging for DM attention all the time ( not aimed at anyone ), and it worked for a time.

And yes sometimes my whole reason for being online is to experience what sort of nifty things THE PLAYERS come up with not the DM's, which is why im endorseing Initiatives.

And to put more fill into the You dont need DM's for everything, it is quite true..over the course of that last 5 years Brunus have been character here most of what i do never even reached the ears of DM's mainly because i thought heh its plausible and its sure as hell fun for me and quite possibly for others so lets give it a shot.

Anyway thats my say in this, take it for what it is

[Root]

On the other hand, there are ways and means. A character could quite conceivably have a vision, dream-quest, simple burst of inspiration or just think 'what would a big scary ass lizard want me to do?'

Actually went with that for a lot of things. Uthgardt are big on dreams, even wanabee ones. Still say that with willingness to change your RP and roll with punches from other chars you can have a lot more fun than solidly trying to achieve a world-altering goal that requires DM's.

[Thief Of Navarre]

King Edward of england went searching for King Arthur's treasures and even assembled his own round table of dragon knights... all of it based on some tatty old paper he found in wales.
Faith counts for more than physical evidence ever could ~ unfortunely faith is measured in levels and spells per day in D&D so there is only much you can suspend your belief without the hard evidence people expect from a fantasy setting! If you say god spoke to you in real life people would have you locked up but in Faerun I doubt anyone would even bat an eyelid

There is only so much we can do without DMs, sure! But we also have the roleplaying central for creating neat stories and putting our ideas to internet canvas.

[Kangleton]

A story requires an inciting incident, rising action, climax, and falling action toward a conclusion. Everyone is giving examples of players being able to create inciting incidents, which is totally true - all it requires is a player to have a goal or desire. This can, but almost never has to involve a DM.

Rising action is where we begin to sometimes require a DM, but maybe not always. If your goal was to be the best swordsman in the land, you don't need a DM for the rising action. You can go grind and challenge players to duels. If your inciting goal was to become a dragon disciple, you can start searching for a dragon or have a dream about one, but you can't transition into the climax (or much further up the slope of rising action) before DM intervention. You can't RP finding a dragon nor can you RP confirmation that your dream was dragon-sent, or that it will bear any fruit.

(Also, it's often not very fun to self-manage the RP of your rising action, as at this point, if you don't have DM support/confirmation, you may feel like you're moving toward a dead-end).

On to the climax, however, you typically need a DM. Or, you can have a goal without an expected climactic point, but as I alluded to earlier, shopping spree RP isn't my thing.

Also, while a lot of things are able to be RPed only between players, it's a lot less interesting when they are. I mean, the best swordsman who keeps losing to players could try to do something crazy like barter with a devil to become better. But next time he challenges someone, he has to send a tell and ask their permission to use the effects of his imaginary, non-mechanical, non-DM RP, which the player may say no to. Even if they don't, it's less interesting because he had to OOCly convey everything first. No surprises, no secrets, no suspense - less cinematic, less immersion, less engaging.