DM Activity

[Kangleton]

Especially when there's 4 people online and Saulus has stated he "doesn't want to attract more players". Hard to have a lot of fresh player initiative with a stale, static group of the same characters in the same area. I echo Gamling's post in that the fundamental design of the server isn't supportive of player initiative, but instead heavy-DM storylines.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Nobody needs DMs! Be your own DM! Power to the people!

*empties another glass of whiskey*

Death to to all tyrants! Yeah! They shall all burn in hell!

^ My kind of man!

On the other hand I support Kangle's amusing common sense.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Hard to have a lot of fresh player initiative with a stale, static group of the same characters in the same area.

Please, keep your comments constructive. Calling other player's PC's stale and static is rude, and insulting. I'd ask you to refrain from such while you post on these forums and play on this server.

As to your original suggestion, DM's are an integral part of the server. I'm not sure how exactly you'd structure the server to rely on players who come and go, but suggestions phrased in a constructive manner are always welcomed. If you seek conflict between PC's, there are multiple factions just waiting for players to fill their ranks and further objectives. And these objectives are, largely, fluid and dynamic. A fighter in the Triumverate may have completely goals and motivations than a paladin, or a cleric, or a monk.

Classes fit in across the board within each faction with a few exceptions. The sandbox is there, players just need to step in and use it.

As far as server wide changes go, yes, DM's are needed. Only they can manipulate NPC's, create outside influence unavailable for players while inside the box. Castles can be built and torn down, depending on how players and DM's work together in order to create a story.

If people feel like the DM's need to take a step back, or only influence the server in certain ways while allowing the players to interact on their own, please say so. We do this because we want people to have fun, that's all.

And the more polite and respectful players are, the better we respond.

[Kangleton]

I'm not accusing particular people of being stale, themselves. I'm saying that when you have only the same 4 people online all the time, the RP is bound to be stale on account of the limited variety of interactions possible between the exact same people in the exact same environment. Accordingly, it's static in the sense that the RP cannot change very much without outside assistance or the addition of new players. I apologize for not being specific, and I hope that I've clarified well enough.

Now, you seem confused as to how a server could be less reliant on DMs, but there are a lot of tried and tested methods on other servers. For starters, player-run factions and player-created factions; a more intuitive crafting system that lends itself to a player-driven economy; autonomy between the cities and ability for players to become politically active in each whereby conflict would be possible between cities, etc. I could be more thorough with all of this, but my post would be long and I'm not convinced anything would be done with comprehensive suggestions due to Saulus' expressed lack of interest.

You mention that there are factions waiting for players, but even if players joined, they'd still be waiting on DMs for missions and objectives. That fighter's goals and motivations that are different from the cleric's... they probably also require a DM. I've also never seen castles built or torn down. The point stands that Sundren is built such that heavy DM involvement is necessary for consistent fun, unless the server starts attracting more players or changes the dynamics around to empower players. Or both.

[Torgar]

Ok, for one thing, I'd like to state I don't feel that the comment that we are stale and static was offensive, it is a very apt descriptor. Stale is used when a substance or instance is unchanging for a period of time, or when something goes bad from not being used, and static means unchanging, which we are. That isn't rude. Second, half the factions aren't joinable without a DM's help because the join quests are broken, so a lot of the factions you're talking about for all classes can't be joined if we don't have staff to help with joining them.

All i've really read in this post by the player side has been that the DM's are absent Now. Not always, not only, just for now. We aren't attacking your personal lives, this isn't an attack on any DM personally, it is a generalized statement. Another generalized statement is that there is a severe lack of players as well, and both problems are dependant on the other. When there are more players, more DM"s get on, with less players, less DM's. But with less DM's on, less playesr want to play. Vicious cycle and all that. I've noticed a lot of the staff seem to feel that all we're doing (player side) is blasting the DM's for not running all the events we want them too, and that is not what we are saying. We are saying that currently, there is a lack of DM activity when compared to a few months ago when we could count two or three DM's on at any given time. If you want to take offense at that statement, then I can't stop you, free will is what it is.

I'm sure once the faction quests are fixed, the new crafting system is implemented, and the other such changes we've all been told about that are coming to the server are put in, then it'll all flip the other way, and there will be plenty of players and DM's to go around. For now, hate to break it to you all, but the DM's are comparitively absent far more right now then months past, and until we, as a player group, see otherwise on a more habitual basis, our opinion on that isn't going to change. That is, after all, what this entire thread is, our opinions.

And if anyone is getting offended over someone's OPINIONS about something, then maybe they need to take a look inside and see WHY they are upset at said opinions before hopping on this thread and blasting someone for being a rude, uncivil person when they really weren't, hmm? Just my opinion.

[Thief Of Navarre]

No-one should be getting offended, this is foreplay and all we consenting adults are still dressed!

On a serious note there is always going to be a lack of 'something' for every player since we all have slightly different priorities. The fact that some players plug pull when you interupt their soloing isnt encouraging either so its not just the lack of DM activity its also the rest of us as a playerbase!

[Torgar]

I actually recently was talking to another player, who's name will remain undisclosed, who likened DMing, since it is volunteer work, to working at a "feed the hungry" shelter. When you stop going to the shelter for four hours a week, and start going four hours a month, if you don't have someone to cover the time you aren't working anymore, then the hungry just get hungrier. I thought it was a rather good metaphor for Sundren at this time.

[Shedboy]

a good analogy. It apples to players too.

Players who have the luxury of many game hrs a week will find it stale eventually.

Familiarity breeds contempt unless you're a dog "whoa! dog food AGAIN for breakfast - Yum!"

[[DM] Grinning Death]

For starters, player-run factions and player-created factions; a more intuitive crafting system that lends itself to a player-driven economy; autonomy between the cities and ability for players to become politically active in each whereby conflict would be possible between cities, etc.

Crafting system remains as a work in progress, there's not much to do about that. Player-run factions are a good idea, but are not supported on this server for a variety of reasons, especially continuity. A faction that holds a certain number of players who run it today may shift dramatically tomorrow, leaving the faction empty and taking up limited space on the server with whatever functions that the DM's painstakingly crafted for their benefit. Putting together a faction base up to Sundren standards takes time and effort, and it's all the more wasted when the players lose interest for whatever reason.

Autonomy between cities would also likely be a problem. Sundren is a nation-state, it has complete control over each city through its Exarchs. The same quandary with factions presents itself when you spread the player base over four or five cities, each with its niche thieves or mage guild, or political group.

That fighter's goals and motivations that are different from the cleric's... they probably also require a DM.

No, they don't. A fighter can have goals that do not require server changing events. Those server changing events need a DM, only because it's not possible to do so without one. Outside influence, scripting, modeling, dialogue and effort have to go into those. They can't be done on a whim.

The point stands that Sundren is built such that heavy DM involvement is necessary for consistent fun, unless the server starts attracting mor eplayers or changes the dynamics around to empower players. Or both

That depends on your definition of consistent fun. If you're constantly trying to change the world on a large scale, yes. You will be frustrated. It will be tough. Because doing so puts pressure on the few people that work behind the scenes to make the world that your PC's inhabit, and cannot do this as a 9-5 job.

Ok, for one thing, I'd like to state I don't feel that the comment that we are stale and static was offensive, it is a very apt descriptor. Stale is used when a substance or instance is unchanging for a period of time, or when something goes bad from not being used, and static means unchanging, which we are. That isn't rude.

I apologize. I took it as an insinuation that the majority of the PC's on this server lack imagination or substance.

. We aren't attacking your personal lives, this isn't an attack on any DM personally, it is a generalized statement.

I'm not quite sure where you got that any of us were offended. We told you what we were doing, and that was all. We replied jokingly, for the most part, but I wanted to address any issues if they exist. Which they do. I felt a certain way about an opinion, and I responded how I felt. That's communication.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Wow, dont make me start spraying George bernard shaw quotes. The shit really hits the fan when Im drinking and quoting!

What shedboy said about people having the luxury of game hours I dont find true. People who have less find it stale because little is happening whereas people who have more game hours eventually find something to amuse them. Cardano's unproven law of large numbers if im not mistaken

[roguethree]

Torgar's not saying it's a personal attack; he's just heading off that notion in case someone were to take it that way. He's just used to people taking him the wrong way, so he tries to make sure people don't mistake him.

[Chipmunk]

I would like to add to this discussion that I'm fairly sure we would love love love people to volunteer as builders.

Don't have toolset experience? Tutorials abound! Come on, folks, you can pitch in as well.

[Kaybrie]

And now for something constructive;

What exactly can a player influence without a DM? More specifically, what systems are in place to support players developing their own goals. Perhaps it would be helpful to compile a list of things players can do on their own, to give them a better idea as to why members of the staff feels so strongly the way they do.

As it stands from my viewpoint as a player the following things come to mind;

-Crafting
-Grinding
-Developing friendships/intimacies between characters
-Campfire RP
-PvP
-Roleplay surrounding ones personal development.

I hedge in anything involving factions without a DM as to fall under one of the latter four. Though I encourage any and everyone with idea's to contribute to this list, and help compile a more creative, vibrant server on the whole.

[Chipmunk]

Some of the most interesting RP I have ever had was had on WoW, believe it or not. I know many people will be skeptical of that, but it's quite simply true. We had -no- DM's, and to be honest, the RP there was qualitatively just as high as on NWN1 / NWN2.

Why? Because you're free to -invent- stuff to RP about. You don't need a DM to run an event, for everything. For instance:

- A high level wizard wants to entertain some lowbies. He knows the server well. He can tell the lowbies:

"Go to the Ogre Caves, and despoil their chief's room with paint".

Presto! Event.

I'm not criticizing here, I honestly am not. I'm only saying that a little bit of willpower and creativity can, in fact, make tons and tons of RP happen without a DM ever touching it. There's been entire (successful) NWN servers without a DM staff, as well.

Factions don't need support from DM's, they need support from players.

[Torgar]

Please, keep your comments constructive. Calling other player's PC's stale and static is rude, and insulting. I'd ask you to refrain from such while you post on these forums and play on this server.

Probably around the time you posted that to the statement that the server population was static and stale, is when I feel you started taking offense to what we were saying. I didn't want to leave that up in the air or fail to communicate my point clearly enough.

And as for your statement that players can do anything as long as it's not server changing, that's a gross overestimation of what we can actually do on the server without someone without administration powers to do something. I notice a vast majority of the staff seem to think we want some earthshaking events for our individual characters to prove we were here and we are important, and no, that's false. We want what every idiot who gets the chance to be on t.v. wants, our ten minutes of fame. That's it. Ten minutes doesn't change anything server wide, it's just a nice feeling a player gets when we feel the DM's actually are acknowledging that what we did mattered in some small way, even if nothing on the server actually changed.

Because, in the end, that's all any of us players who aren't DM's, who will never be DM's, really want, is just some acknowledgement. And I"m not talking some condencending remark to just placate us because you don't really want to have to deal with the problem either. All it takes for a lot of us is a five minute post in the RP forum, or to respond to our correspondence, or something so simple as just having some random Joe walk up to us on the server, who's heard about something relevant that character did, and congratulating them, or cursing them if they are a bad guy.

It's hard to want to DM right now, I get it. There's a low server population, and the people who are on, the second you, as a DM, logs on, there are half a dozen PM's to you wanting you to do something for them, and it's daunting. I get that, I think for the most part, we all do. Most times it can feel like a thankless job, and even though I've tried my best to avoid it, even I, very occasionally, am guilty of forgetting to thank a staff member for the assistance given to me when I needed it, and for that I apologize.

We don't expect that DMing should be a full time job for the staff, or even a part time job really. I mean, twenty hours every week is rough for anyone to put into a game if you are anything less then a dedicated gamer. I think I"m one of the few people on the server who's never DM'd on Sundren or another server at one point in my experience with playing NWN2, but I have DM'd enough PnP games to know that sometimes, it's a lot of work to have to just move even simple adventures through.

I have, in my time on Sundren, had the chance to be part of some truely epic adventures. I've dove into hell to save an Illmatari priestess, I've ventured out with a paladin, a druid, and a sorceror to battle an enormous Dracolich, I've gone toe to toe with some of the strongest, scariest baddies in Sundrens history. Sebastian the vampire, Golias the champion of Bane, Vraer the evil necromancer, all of them scarier then anything any adventurer should ever have to fight. So, I'm very grateful for the effort that the staff has put into Sundren in the past, and I have been very fortunate to be a part of a lot of Sundren's recent history.

That said, that's Sundren's past, and Sundren's present is like a leaf in a dammed up river, it's not going anywhere. And it's not just one beaver (A DM for the point of this metaphor) that's needed to bust down the dam to let the water start flowing, it's an entire pack (herd, flock? I don't know what multiple beavers are called) that's needed to open the floodgates.

Sorry about all that up there, I do tend to ramble on a lot when I get going on a point, I'm really long winded when I have the chance to be. The point of all that was, The staff is very much appreciated for the work it does, and if it seems that we as a player base are really overly needy, maybe it's best to really look into WHY we're being so insistant on there even needing to be a forum thread like the one we are in.

Again, sorry for the rambling. *Shuts up and hopes Roguethree can once again explain what he said in two sentences so it makes more sense then what he just wrote*