clarification on paladins

[Shedboy]

a few questions about paladins. My conceptions of them is still stuck in the 2nd ed paladins. So here are a few questions:

Firstly: Fear immunity: has this been interpreted too literally or the word "immune" used too liberally as a game mechanic?

Is it rather a case of being immune to fear effects? eg immunity to adverse negative statistical modifiers. Here is a defn of fear as defined by something like from GBX link he sent in another thread

Fear

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

The implications for Paladins without fear are as much a disability / curse as it is a boon. They would need to be countinually assessing every situation for danger which i imagine would be quite a strain on the cognitive load. For most of us Fear keeps us safe from doing lots of stupid things. If anything i would think Paladins would also need a quite high intelligence and wisdom score to assess every situation, contingencies etc. which would decrease their performance.

The only stereotype i could think of was Data from star trek who had a positronic (?) brain or something. Could someone provide an exemplar of a paladin in terms of this stuff?

A paladin without fear can mean attributes such as bravery, valor, cowardice, can only be falsely ascribed by others. Emotions such as empathy, compassion, love, seem less genuine. Certainly, my second ed paladin's handbook makes reference to paladins overcming their fear, but then they didn't get the fear immunity power. hence my resistance to accepting the new WoC dogma if it be the case.

Secondly, this fear immunity, can it be automatically dropped? like a creature lowering their spell resistance. That would sit better with me.

Thirdly, during atonement does a paladin lose their divine abilities - one of which would be fear immunity? And how does one atone when all their business is supposedly the work of their god. Do they for instance hang out at a poor shop to study the human condition/ peel potatoes? or just get pout there and give 120% instead of the usual 110%. I am rather confused here.


IN conclusion
It just seems to me that paladins not experiencing fear would be as much of a liability as a boon. A disability as much as it is a strength. Certainly playing a human with NO insecurities requires, by me at least, a considerable leap of the imagination. I see huge difficulties for Paladins managing empathy, unintentional arrogance / haughtiness, and just plain lots of dead paladins. It reminds me of emotional leprosy.

Your thoughts appreciated

[Kaybrie]

Paladins are immune to fear, not being intelligent.

They aren't effected by fear means that they make every decision with a clear head, free of any anxiety. That isn't a disability, nor is it a token for paladins to run face first into death at every opportunity. It doesn't mean their emotionally blunted, and it doesn't mean they can't be compassionate. It means they can't be influenced by fear, intimidation, etc. Paladins are not born with immunity to fear, and any human paladin won't have lived long enough to have simply forgotten what it was like to feel that fear when they were inexperienced or even before they became a paladin. Whilst an elven paladin may be very different, in that they've lived for so long with their fear immunity that they are simply emotionally blunted or uncaring toward the feelings of others, holding everyone to a higher standard. Though again, this is up to an individuals role play, not a standard or rule that must be adhered to.

If an individual wants to role play their paladin with emotional leprosy, they're welcome to, but this interpretation of fear immunity doesn't have to be held to every paladin.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

...And now I have to make a new PC. Damn you, Kasso.

[Kaybrie]

If you were inspired by my elf I'll save you the time by just saying; you'll be making a short, pointy-eared Dain.

[roguethree]

Secondly, this fear immunity, can it be automatically dropped? like a creature lowering their spell resistance.

No.

A paladin without fear can mean attributes such as bravery, valor, cowardice, can only be falsely ascribed by others. Emotions such as empathy, compassion, love, seem less genuine.

No.

It just seems to me that paladins not experiencing fear would be as much of a liability as a boon. A disability as much as it is a strength. [...] I see huge difficulties for Paladins managing empathy, unintentional arrogance / haughtiness, and just plain lots of dead paladins.

Yes.

[Maevan2]

Does a paladin know pain? Likely. Does this mean he tries to avoid getting hurt as long there is a way to avoid it? Likely. Does fear keep him from doing what is necessary even though if it means that he might get hurt? No.

[Doubtful]

A personal opinion here, rather than any specific stamp of authority.[/disclaimer]

When it comes to the immunity to fear part of paladinhood, the basic rules can't get much clearer.

Aura of Courage (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Due to supernatural gubbins the Paladin cannot suffer the effects of fear - Cannot be shaken, rattled, frightened, panicked or stirred.

Attempting to put a supernatural fantasy ability into a real-world context is pretty much a pathway to failure, much like all of the attempts to explain how Hide In Plane Sight(su) functions.

That said, the rules only set out the end result (immunity to fear) of the effect, not the how. I'm always fairly happy (so long as it's not to ott or outragous) to see people put their own spin on the 'how'.

The How is the fun part, be it divine link, internal acceptance, meditation, insanity, emotional atrophy, closer-to-my-god-than-thee or plain old rightious fury.. whatever, so long as the end result is the same, it's all dandy with me.

[Lucidity]

They would need to be countinually assessing every situation for danger which i imagine would be quite a strain on the cognitive load.

Shouldn't everyone be doing that?! We roleplay in a world full of endless dangers, both living and unliving, as well as dangers from other dimensions, other worlds.. the possibilities of dangers are endless!

Continually assessing danger isn't something that's necessarily draining.. outright anyway. When I was in the army, we had a term for it.. I believe it was called paying the f*** attention. (Example cited simply because you're comparing game mechanics to real life)

For most of us Fear keeps us safe from doing lots of stupid things.

Agreed. But, this a real life thing. We are both extremely intricate and subtle organic machinery composed of trillions of cells, upon which has evolved through roughly three thousand million years of natural selection, adaptation, amongst other natural processes. Abeir-Toril is.. a different story. Logically, I believe, that the fear you speak of, our 'Fight or Flight Response', is exponentially different than pissing your pants in fright from the sight of a nearby shambling corpse with a wicked grin. (Again, stated because this seems to be a comparison of game mechanics to real life.)

If anything i would think Paladins would also need a quite high intelligence and wisdom score to assess every situation, contingencies etc. which would decrease their performance.

Absolutely! Even my character follows those standards - otherwise we'd be nothing but blithering zealous meatshields! (Not that we aren't anyway.. )

The only stereotype i could think of was Data from star trek who had a positronic (?) brain or something. Could someone provide an exemplar of a paladin in terms of this stuff?

I'd love to answer your question further, but I'm not exactly sure of what you mean.. when you speak of Data's heightened cognitive abilities due to technological advances, is this in regard to your previous speaking of fear?

A paladin without fear can mean attributes such as bravery, valor, cowardice, can only be falsely ascribed by others. Emotions such as empathy, compassion, love, seem less genuine.

Falsely ascribed by others? I'm looking at the definition here..

–verb (used with object), -cribed, -crib·ing.
1.
to credit or assign, as to a cause or source; attribute; impute

Are you saying that these attributes are unattainable by non-paladins? If so, I wouldn't agree.. For example, consider a parent or guardian who would rescue their child from (insert calamity here). Does that make them a paladin? No. Does it make them brave, loving, compassionate? Consider the definition of bravery, since we're talking real life here:

adjective, brav·er, brav·est, noun, verb, braved, brav·ing.
–adjective
1.
possessing or exhibiting courage or courageous endurance.

Then according to the definition, yes, the example would be considered 'brave'. However, you also run into the problem of personal interpretation of these attributes, too. What a cutthroat bandit would consider valorous and what a knight would consider valorous are more than likely two completely different things.

Secondly, this fear immunity, can it be automatically dropped? like a creature lowering their spell resistance. That would sit better with me.

As far as I have seen and played, no. It seems to be a completely and eternally passive ability - the only thing nullifying it being death. But, I'm purely speaking from versions 3.0 and 3.5 - I would imagine the rulings would be the same for the previous version, but I could be incorrect.

(Taken from The Player's Handbook, excerpt p. 43) No one ever chooses to be a paladin. Becoming a paladin is answering a call, accepting one's destiny. No one, no matter how diligent, can become a paladin through practice. The nature is either within one or not, and it is not possible to gain the paladin's nature by any act of will.

By that definition, to simply 'turn off' fear immunity would seem to be more along the lines of a failure to recognize one's potential as a paladin, or deny one's destiny.

Thirdly, during atonement does a paladin lose their divine abilities - one of which would be fear immunity? And how does one atone when all their business is supposedly the work of their god. Do they for instance hang out at a poor shop to study the human condition/ peel potatoes? or just get pout there and give 120% instead of the usual 110%. I am rather confused here.

The loss of ALL paladin abilities happens as a consequence of an evil or chaotic action, not during the atonement process. As for the actual atonement process - that's something that's usually up to DM discretion, in my experience. As for anything else.. well, take a look at this:

Typical self-imposed penalties might include:

• Apologies to the affected parties, with assurances the offensive act will never be committed again.
• A vow of silence for the next 1-2 days.
• Becoming consumed with guilt and self-loathing for the next 1-2 days, during which time he makes all combat rolls and ability checks at a –1 penalty.
• A special tithing, donation, or service for which the paladin accepts no return.

It just seems to me that paladins not experiencing fear would be as much of a liability as a boon. A disability as much as it is a strength. Certainly playing a human with NO insecurities requires, by me at least, a considerable leap of the imagination. I see huge difficulties for Paladins managing empathy, unintentional arrogance / haughtiness, and just plain lots of dead paladins. It reminds me of emotional leprosy.

It's not that they don't experience it - they have completely overcome it. When you have dedicated your life to and answered the call of a divine power, what is there left to fear? With death comes release and a step closer to being united with the one truth in which a paladin identifies themselves with: their god.

Playing a paladin with no insecurities just seems like poor roleplay, in my opinion. There can be both - trust me. Take a look at Icharus, for example. In the background that I've written for him, I've included a little parental abandonment - something that even a paladin wouldn't easily be able to overcome. It seems to me that what you're referencing is like.. a paladin lobotomy. If played that way, yes, I would agree, it probably would result in a dead paladin. All the more fun to play with insecurities, and weaknesses.. it's what makes us.. us!

Anyways.. enjoy this book! Damn thing took me like an hour and a half to write...

Edit: All above writings, unless specifically cited, are the opinions of the aforementioned forum user.

[Handsomeman]

Aura of courage and divine grace are supernatural abilities. Supernatural abilities are supposed to go away in an anti-magic field. In theory, they would be subjectable to fear if they step in an anti-magic field. Lowering spell resistance does not get rid of aura of courage.

As far a paladin and redemption goes, I believe it's something like a guy putting a few drinks on his tab. He could do this a few times until he pays or until the bartender stop serving him drinks and makes him pay. Likewise, the paladin can make a few mistakes and hold off his atonement for a little while. But eventually the paladin will have to do his attonement or his god will stop giving him powers(this includes aura of courage). It could also depend on the severity of his mistake. One big mistake could cause him to lose his power instantly. <---(i base this paragraph all on assumption. Its really up to the god/dm to see how they want to handle this)

If I'm not mistaken, a paladin who wants attonement needs to seek out a priest or cleric of his faith and have them cast attonement spell on the paladin. The cleric/priest will then send the paladin on a quest which he must complete to regain his favor from his god.

[ManUtd4Ever]

When I think about the determination of a Paladin and the way in which they deal with fear and intimidation... I am reminded of George C. Scott's protrayal of General Patton. (Turner Movie Classics).

Patton believed in reincarnation, and more specifically he felt he was destine for greatness because he had been a great warrior in his previous lives. While others around him saw battle for what it was and feared for their lives... he did not. He felt God was on his side. This led him to also believe he was immortal since his Soul lived on, as it had done from previous lives. He never let fear or intimidation get in the way of his actions.

Perhaps it is all just Hollywood... but I like to think of Paladins in this way regardless of the mechanics of d20.

Cheers!

[Lothoir]

If I'm not mistaken, a paladin who wants attonement needs to seek out a priest or cleric of his faith and have them cast attonement spell on the paladin. The cleric/priest will then send the paladin on a quest which he must complete to regain his favor from his god.

There's no mechanical 'need' for a quest. The atonement spell only has the caveat that if the subject performed the evil or misdeed knowingly and willingly* the caster loses 500 xp because they have to intercede with their deity to restore the paladin's favor. Since xp isn't nearly as easy to come by in PnP as it is in Sundren 500xp is a big deal, so the cleric generally assigns a quest that benefits them or their temple to both ensure the contriteness of the subject and to help them out.

If the cleric makes them do the quest to prove their worthiness of the atonement before the spell, the paladin has to get the Grail or whatever without their powers.

[Shedboy]

keep the post coming pls. good responses all around. All noted, thanks.

To clarify a point: I was after a fictional examples of the psyche of someone who has an absence of fear. Thanks ManUTDd4ever for an example. Anything in fantasy adventure?

To clarify about the cognitive load, i realize people do act with adrenaline and it can override fear etc. also the example i think lucidity of parental instinct is a good example. I was thinking fear is another emotion in the repertoire that help keep someone safe. If can of course overwhelm us and we make mistakes. But then if you freeze and someone runs and you cant help it your alive if there is a T-rex about etc.


To complicate things, I'll add a Fourth Question

Further to the discussion., i was thinking what the opinion would be on Paladins experiencing the effects of horror? e.g. while not being afraid of the situation, seeing a particularly gory, macarbe, sorrowful, or just plain sick event/situation could tap into something disturbing. I imagine there would be many a grissly sight to be had in faerun. Oh and then there is madness of course. Be good to hear some opinions here.

Keep the post coming pls thanks

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

To complicate things, I'll add a Fourth Question

Further to the discussion., i was thinking what the opinion would be on Paladins experiencing the effects of horror? e.g. while not being afraid of the situation, seeing a particularly gory, macarbe, sorrowful, or just plain sick event/situation could tap into something disturbing. I imagine there would be many a grissly sight to be had in faerun. Oh and then there is madness of course. Be good to hear some opinions here.

Keep the post coming pls thanks

Well I'd say yeah, they can suffer psychological trauma related to some of the things they're dealing with. They aren't automatons or (usually) sociopaths incapable of human empathy. They are still capable of feeling everything other than fear, including doubt hopelessness and depression. And those feelings occasionally even break them.

[Lucidity]

. while not being afraid of the situation, seeing a particularly gory, macarbe, sorrowful, or just plain sick event/situation could tap into something disturbing. I imagine there would be many a grissly sight to be had in faerun. Oh and then there is madness of course.

Immunity to fear would not translate into immunity to mental trauma.

Allow me to share a story with you.

This story takes place along the Song Tra Bong river in Vietnam.

Envision a platoon of soldiers trudging along this river. On this particular night, during the course of the Vietnam War, this platoon had become exhausted from previous battle from the night past. The platoon moved to a small field next to the Song Tra Bong river, and interestingly, were accosted by group of Vietnamese women who tried to discourage them from settling there.

While the men in this platoon started to set up camp, they noticed a very pungent sour, fish-like smell. It took at least two hours before someone in the group realized that they had set up camp in the middle of a sewage field.
Meanwhile, the rain poured down in buckets, and the earth bubbled sickeningly with a combination of humid, foul heat and excess moisture.

Suddenly, without any warning, round after round of mortar shells fell on the camp; the very earth itself seemingly boiling and exploding. When the third round hit, Private First Class Kiowa began screaming, pleading and begging for help in a distinct tone that the entire platoon recognized as the agony of injury and dismemberment. A nearby soldier and dear friend to PFC Kiowa, Sergeant Bowker watched in horror as the vile muck seemed to surround and swallow his comrade. Bowker attempted to grab Kiowa by the leg and pull him out, but to rescue his friend would also mean his own death, for the very sewage that threatened to consume his subordinate was also a danger to him as well. Completely overwhelmed by the nauseating stench of the pit, Bowker released his grip, vomiting in disgust and despair as he saw one of his best friends slip away before his very eyes into the slimy depths of nothingness.

After the war, Bowker returns to his original hometown in Iowa. On the Fourth of July, as he drives his father's Chevrolet around a nearby lake, he realizes he has nowhere to go. He reminisces about his high-school girlfriend, Sally Kramer, who is now married. He thinks about his friend, Max Arnold, who drowned in the lake during his enlistment period. He also thinks of his father, whose greatest hope that his son Bowker would return home with a plethora of medals. He drives around the town again and again, flicks on the radio, orders a hamburger from the local A&W, and imagines telling his father the story of the way he almost won the Silver Star, when the banks of the Song Tra Bong river overflowed.

Bowker wants to relate this memory to someone, but the attitudes of those around him are completely uncaring and non-understanding. On his eleventh trip around the lake, he imagines telling his father the story and admitting that he did not act with the courage he hoped he might have. He imagines that his father might console him with the idea of the seven medals he did win.

He parks his car and wades into the lake with his clothes on, submerging himself. Looking up from underneath the water, Bowker watches the fireworks explode in the sky above, thinking to himself as the last few bubbles of oxygen escape from his mouth...

"These fireworks.. they're pretty good... for a small town.. "
__________________________________________________

I hope you understand the point I was trying to relay.

[Kaybrie]

Most adventurers period are very acquainted with the sight of gore and horrible things. Anything concerning demons should be riddled with hopeless madness, seeing the dead walk should drive people insane.

Characters who fly up Argyle Keep then talk about it later as "Oh, hahah I totally went up there and killed stuff, got a cool helmet." Then look later at some exploded corpse in a DM event like it's the most traumatizing thing they've ever seen strike me as odd.

This is no longer a paladin specific question, given that they have no particular enhancements against such sights. The question then becomes, how have you been roleplaying your character's reactions to bloodshed and killing up to this point? A grim necessity? Something they do as a job? Their greatest joy? Do they abhor it and want nothing to do with it? A Paladin as a character is generally very well aquainted with violence and bloodshed, they're the martial arm of their deity. If they are disturbed by such horrible sights clerics are there who are very capable of removing insanity or madness from an individuals psyche. The same can be said for a fighter/wizard/rogue/etc. It's generally why adventurers only generally go insane from a specific curse/magical influence/artifact.