PvP Etiquette?

[Handsomeman]

Yesterday I got into a PvP conflict involving 2 other players. It went out something like this. 3 guys standing at a campfire, player 1 cast wail of banshee and kills/subdues player 2. Player 3 survives the spell and goes into melee with player 1. Player 1 has the upper hand, so player 3 quaffs down several healing potions. Player 3 manages to win and subdues player 1. Player 2 gets back up and starts beating on player 1.

After the conflict, it was mentioned that using healing potions, and getting back up to re-engage in battle after getting subdued/killed is bad PvP etiquette. I'm not sure if they are bad or not. I have seen players using heal spells, and regenerate spells in the past, but not so much potions. I was wondering what most people consider what is good/bad PvP etiquettes. So list and discuss some good/bad PvP etiquettes and see how most other player feel about it.

[Nighteyes]

Obviously, I haz no authority... but...

1) It seems to me that anyone complaining about potion use in PvP hasn't a leg to stand on. Aren't divine classes powerful enough already? And at the levels you're talking about, Regeneration amounts to a heal potion every round, action-free, as you beat on people, and can be stacked. Potions incur attacks of opportunity, and I don't see them as nearly as immersion-breaking as ye olde heal-kit spam.

2) Getting back up after subdual, I'd find to be problematic, though I'm not sure if it's actually against the rules? After all, subdual damage knocks someone out, and has beaten the living (eep) out of them, and from a game perspective encourages more people to keep on lethal damage. "But Nighteyes, maybe that's good!" I don't think so, personally, because it precludes any significant interactive RP with the defeated person.

PvP is terribly contentious, though, and the utter lack of character balance (levelwise, classwise, you name it) only adds to the contention, as does the fact that 3.5 was never meant to be a PvP engine. So your mileage may vary.

[Dragor]

I consider it bad form...if someone is using subduel it is meant to subdue you without resorting to the annoyance of a PvP related death. I had a similar encounter with my SL except someone else was healing the fallen person (At least until I knocked her out), luckily a DM was spam healing my SL due to the weather . After I had knocked everyone but a few people out, and extorted money from one of the remaining ones they all started getting up and healing...and organizing a pursuit.

I really found that to be bad form, I dont like to PvP kill people due to the sacrifice in RP and the potential for bad gameplay experience (especially at the lower lvl's (a certain party of drow who killed the entire server comes to mind)) that occurs when you do that.

[Yevelian]

Getting back up from subdual is fine, under the right conditions. For instance, if the aggressor and another defender are locked in combat, who's to stop one from coming to, realizing "hey, I'm hurt", and chugging well stocked potions?

In your stated case, I'm for this being fine. Player 3 and Player 1 were still engaged, when means you should be free to come out of consciousness and take actions.

I'm a PvP supporter under the right conditions. Deity, and faction, being the only two reasons I ever PvP. I despise "random" PvPers, RP should dictate all.

[Doubtful]

Getting back up from PvP subdual and getting back into melee is a massive no-no.

If see anyone doing it (This goes double for pulling this kind of crap in an event) I've no qualms about administering penalties.

Potions and healing spells are fine to use during combat, NOT to recover from subdual.

The easiest way to think about it is this: If you are killed / subdued, you have been defeated. Your part in that PvP bout is over.

[Chipmunk]

What Doubt said.

I've spoken with the Devs about the subdual system, and gone through the archives of our forums.

The only reason you can get up so quickly is because otherwise it could lead to issues. For all intents and purposes, you're dazed and confused. Potions and healing spells heal your body, but your mind is still reeling from its near-death experience, and you're still aching from exertion.

Also: sneak-resting / abusing potions / healing spells during my events won't add to your XP turnout.

[ThePaganKing]

Pvp

IMO, people are too PVP crazy anyway and they seem to think PVP will stop the boredom for a bit.

I do agree with the two DMs, getting up after subdual is bad form and should never happen. If that happened to me, I would switch off subdual and kill the bastard.

[Lothoir]

Slightly off track, but hopefully not much: Subdualing with direct damage spells and even worse, with instant death effects, is mind numbingly stupid. One subdues with a sword by using the flat of their blade and pulling their attacks so as not to do extreme damage, which is why in PnP it imposes a -4 penalty to all attacks. I really wish that would be implemented in Sundren, as well as the removal of the ability to subdue with spells. Why should spellcasters walk around with nonlethal spells when they can just subdual people with massive damage no save spells?

[Kaybrie]

I assume all this is void in the case of another cleric healing your sorry ass back?

[Chipmunk]

I assume all this is void in the case of another cleric healing your sorry ass back?

That depends - if it was a friendly PvP duel - sure.

If it was hostile PvP, being subdualed means you're out of the fight. See the above post of mine for an explanation (IC) why.

[Kaybrie]

I don't see the IC explanation, other then for like, cure wounds spells. Given that high end healing, namely Greater Resto and moreso Heal specifically state that they remove mental afflictions/stuns/nautiated status/confusion etc.

[Lothoir]

I can understand there being a ruling that one can't heal themselves after a subdualed fight because characters only heal 1 HP of subdual an hour, but it's pretty clear in the SRD that magical healing restores not only hitpoints but subdual damage ON TOP of what it already does.

Not killing an opponent should be a calculated risk that has an enormous risk of backfiring if you don't immediately shackle or otherwise restrain the target that's calculated against the blowback from killing someone (Legal issues, friends of the fallen looking for revenge, a reputation as a killer, etc).

[Artemis]

What Doubt said.

I've spoken with the Devs about the subdual system, and gone through the archives of our forums.

The only reason you can get up so quickly is because otherwise it could lead to issues. For all intents and purposes, you're dazed and confused. Potions and healing spells heal your body, but your mind is still reeling from its near-death experience, and you're still aching from exertion.

Also: sneak-resting / abusing potions / healing spells during my events won't add to your XP turnout.

Me three.

[twistedwolf]

I was involved in that. Player 1 and I have an argument he Kills me player 2 ok i'm fine with that. I go back and RP with player 3 player 1 comes back up few minutes latter and not long since he killed player 2 first time. casts wail of the banshee for no reason. sends me player 2 back to fugue again costing almost 2k by now. So I decide if he's going keep killing me a low level player over and over again i'm going to beat his greifing wizard butt into the ground. So from my perspective it's bad form to kill someone more than once a day or at least a few hours.

[Artemis]

Yeah, kind of sounds like grieving to me, too. :/