Duelist

[Jsmon]

While I was planning for my character, I checked up a few forums around the net, mostly trying to get information on how to build a good duelist.

Sadly, it has come to my attention that several individuals discussed how the prestige class was bugged and broken. Useless.

Was this fix in the server?

[Doubtful]

I think you'll have to be a bit more specific on what exactly is broken or useless before we can say if it's been addressed or not.

[Root]

I think...

1. It's a Dex-based Fighter...
2. It focuses in Parry, which is bugged or at least generally useless.
3. It's a DEX-BASED FIGHTER.

It's a decent-ish class overall, though a bit worse than just a pure strength-based fighter. I think the problem is that we all know the general opinion of pure strength-based fighters.


The only time I've ever seen it used is at epic level in an Eldritch Knight build, giving the EK 9th level spells and great AC (+8 Int bonus, +6 Dex bonus, +3 Armour) even in Light Armour, meaning he can cast successfully without Stilling.

(Think the build was Wizard 7/Swashbuckler 3/EK 10/ Duelist 10)

That means Combat Insight and Precise Strike gives you double your Int bonus on attacks, and you get your AC somewhere up to Jupiter even when unbuffed.

It might, might just be feasible if you get a good support mage to follow you around.



So yeah, the best way of using the weak Duelist/Swash classes is combining them with much more powerful ones.

[Lothoir]

If Elaborate Parry was changed to the 3.5 version I think the class would be pretty nifty. In NWN2 Duelists add their class level to all parry checks. In 3.5 they add their class level to their dodge AC when fighting defensively.

I don't know if it's possible to hook the bonus AC to the combat expertise mode, however the total defense feats are already coded in and could easily be tweaked to check if the user has combat expertise or imp combat expertise and if so just act like them, with the additional duelist dodge bonus on top of that.

[Doubtful]

I don't think there's much that can be done about the parry aspect, there is an annoying bug in parry due to the way the game stacks attacks, essentially you're unable to parry any attack after the 3rd, as the 4th stacks up with the 1st, the 5th with the second and so on - The stacked attacks bypass any parry attempts.

And yes, then there's the whole focus in a lowish damage weapon with lowish STR = lowish damage (offset by specific feats).

It's still a potent class in a group though, swapping damage out for damage avoided is handy for tying up enemies.

[Dragor]

The whole duelist thing I think misses out on its true potential if you do the EK thing...sure you can buff yourself but as I have always pointed out having a meleer and a buffer as opposed to a hybrid will always work out better CvE

Swashy/Duelist/Rogue or just Swashy/Duelist

I think I had my roomates Duelist calculated out (while buffed by Seb) as having 55 AC against his current opponent (lvl 18) and anything that wasnt undead or what-not was dead in 1 or 2 rounds

I think because of the fact it can still dish out dmg and retain a high AC with a minimum of gear gives it alot of advantages over your Str Based meleers

and on a side note...

Root there have been at least two instances of a high lvl duelist on this server since I have been playing on it, Thomp, and Johanna, both were pure meleers and both made it to somewhere around lvl 18 before they quit playing for boredom related reasons.

[Root]

The whole duelist thing I think misses out on its true potential if you do the EK thing...sure you can buff yourself but as I have always pointed out having a meleer and a buffer as opposed to a hybrid will always work out better CvE

The point with going EK is the fact that to have high enough Intelligence for Canny Defense to be worth it (over, say, wearing fullplate), you might as well also be using it to get 9th level spells.

With 3 Swashbuckler levels added in, you get from your Int bonus:

Spell DC's
Extra Spells
AC
Damage

I don't think there's anything useful you can really get from adding 10 Swash levels. Maybe a Swashbuckler 14/Weaponmaster 7/Duelist 9 could have the benefit of lots of Weakening Criticals, but I don't think that's really superior to having 9th level spells.

Only thing missing is AB for your dex. And when you get to epic level, you can get double your Int bonus as damage. A Wizard can easily get his Int up to 20 base and then buff it by 4, and have his Dexterity at around 20-24 for attack bonus and a Mithral chain shirt (only 10% Arcane Spell Failure)

You know what's better than a Wizard buffing a Fighter and watching him kick arse?

An EK buffing both himself and a fighter, then kicking arse alongside him. Sadly most go for the 'Hur durr, I cannot afford to give two life-saving spells to the fighter, I need twenty buffs for myself'.









Main problem is, with Dexy fighters, you need two stats, at least. A Fighter needs Strength, for his AB and Damage. He survives in his fullplate. A dexer needs Dexterity and Int, meaning he might just be able to get both to 20 if he's lucky, without buffs.

[Dragor]

You know what's better than a Wizard buffing a Fighter and watching him kick arse?

Main problem is, with Dexy fighters, you need two stats, at least. A Fighter needs Strength, for his AB and Damage. He survives in his fullplate.

I disagree with the first part of the quote, In my experience and with my roomates experience trying to build an EK(ON THIS SERVER) that is not 10/10 Wiz/EK is that you barely have enough spells to buff yourself effectively let alone another Char. It doesnt really change until the late Teen lvl's. With the 10/10 build it works better but you cant really start going EK until at least lvl 7 which by then you are always a little behind on your To Hit rolls with the high AC targets provided for lvls 9-20

Also it gets really frustrating dealing with armor (on off on off) so you wind up building an Int based char with the same problem you highlight for the dex based duelist.


Now for the second part of the quote.

20 in two stats is easily obtained but you're going to start out with either 9 or 8 in another stat (I usually choose Cha because I like to portray charicter flaws)

a dex based Swashy Duelist Rogue is actually really easy to build and equip especially if you max out UMD

IMO I've never found any reason to advance past lvl 5 as a duelist filling in the other 15 lvls with something else as lvls 6-9 of duelist do not actually give you any really usefull abilities/while it is easy with equip to get two 20 stats anything above that becomes nigh impossible and 3-5 lvls of rogue along with fient makes a dex build pretty nasty.

Comparisons:
(assuming all chars have buffs on them)

While a str based char(Xaayne/Helga) can out dmg the build they cannot hope to match the AC even with the kind of equip Xaayne was starting to get when I last played

and a DD build like Gromlin/Kili while it has more or less the same AC unstanced (alot of Gromlin's was equip) couldnt match the dmg output on critable things.

And self buffing divine casters(except Cruven or a high lvl SL) can match the base dmg and AC but the swashy AC bonus against current target and the crits and the higher BaB make up for it LONG TERM

Cruven falls under the str based char comparison when he isnt rocking the short termers

A dex/int based swashy rogue duelist because it can reach 45 ac buffed and in the high 50's against current target, has 16-17 BaB, crits alot due to imp crit and the crit range on a rapier, and with fient and sneak attack the dmg done on a crit can sometimes exceed 70 you have one of the most balanced melee builds you can make...one with a wide range of skills and abilities for both combat and RP purposes

UMD is important however as some of the best equip you can use has class restrictions (the base NwN kind of restrictions not the dev added ones) on it. Like the bumblebee samurai outfit that is a shirt that gives +2 ac

/End of Essay