Player Input - Epic Level Progression

[GholaMan]

well i dont think permadeath is nessicarily keeping things fresh considering how long it takes to level in the server. If we had perma death we would be making new characters all the time. Character development takes time and it becomes stunted and frustrating when you get a lagdeath that you cant come back from.

[Philosopher]

I find it hard to believe that anyone would wish to be permed so harshly after putting months of development into their character, unless they were tired of their character's story.

I find that players who are dissatisfied with their characters, or don't play them often because of boredom or bitterness are the most receptive to idea of permadeath. But that's just in my experience.

[Cornuto]

I find it hard to believe that anyone would wish to be permed so harshly after putting months of development into their character, unless they were tired of their character's story.

I find that players who are dissatisfied with their characters, or don't play them often because of boredom or bitterness are the most receptive to idea of permadeath. But that's just in my experience.

I think that's an overgeneralization. While people may not relish perma-death of a character they enjoy, I think there's more than a few players on the server that would accept it in stride if the circumstances warranted.

[Redjack]

I think it's all a evil plot to eliminate level 20 and > characters.
I know a character thats planning on waiting till all the 20+ are lost in the depths of the dungeon then he will rule the server.

I would chose retirement of one of my characters over perming.

[nezzerscape]

well here is my 2 cents...

In general I think it is a good idea to have things epic players can do. I do not like perma death but Snoop cleared that up. I think if you are doing high risk / reward then XP loss and fatigue should result (perhaps fatigue even if you succeed – but for a short time). And by fatigue I mean the kind you can not get around and last for X amount of play time not RL time. Just playing another toon while you epic toon heals should not be an option.

The down side for this is that it will stretch the power build vs. other build even more. Simply put only select classes / build will benefit from this. That is a fact. This is not a complaint; it is a fact Sundren is set up to support select classes for level progression. It is the nature of low magic PWs and not due to staff or other factors. By allowing power builds (and/or builds that support level progression) even more areas to increase the gap, will only add to this.

I would much rather see existing areas tailored to other classes as well as make use of skills.

Nez

[roguethree]

I cut my teeth on permadeath servers. When people died, people cared. It was great.

It all comes back to not being too into "your" story. I'm a big picture kind of guy.

Also, if I ever get Great Smite II and III, ya'll are in some serious trouble.

[Silas North]

Of course, someone has to suffer as a bard until level 21 to even get a chance at it XD I think if people survive that far then whatever. And I just said immunity. We can easily add items to help against things like this if we wanted, like potions of element resistance.

And we can easily modify the thing to have a save too.

Actually, in a one on one fight Os has kicked the crap out of clerics, druids, and FS's alike armed with the same levels and level of gear. I really don't think we're weak at all as a class. We just don't start off strong, are semi-gear dependant, don't have much in the way of prcs to revolve around, and (while we're arguably one of the BEST classses at one-on-one fights when built correctly) we can't tank like a cleric or druid can.

We also get the Chrous of Heroism available at lvl 21 too. True, this only improves our capacity as group support, but DAMN does it do so effectively.

Bards are fine as is imo, just not idiot-proof to build or play. It would be nice to be able to cast Countersong on ourselves however. I sometimes think that the inability to do so is an Obsidian bug.

[ThePaganKing]

I like the idea that Subal put out about fatigue. Please read his post to get the specifics.

I also agree with Silas North about bards. They start out weak, but they can be very powerful at higher levels. My bard (1 fighter/15 bard, before I perma killed him) Elric could stand toe to toe with just about anyone, except a Favored Soul (got his ass kicked by a higher level favored soul).

[Torgar]

I think a few of the points from earlier on in the post need to be addressed.

1. "The risk is too great, no one will ever run the area, it will just gather dust" This point is without merit, as I know for a fact, that I can gather a group of 4-6 lvl 20's easy to run this area, even if there was risk of perma or other equivalent penalties. (I know Perma is not an option Snoop, I was just putting it out there as an example.)

2. "This only benefits people who grind" I hate to break this to people, but that is how every game in the history of gaming works. People who put more effort into improving themselves, surprise surprise, improve themselves more then people who just sit around. I'm not disparaging RPers, you are what makes the story of sundren go round, but you also NEED people like those who go out and grind to make themselves better to move that story along when there is fighting to be done. You can not have suitably epic stories if the villain you are facing is some orc wizard who barely has fourth level spells.

3. "Epic levels only cater to those who are strong enough to run the area" That's not just epic levels, that is every level. The only way to really level is to be strong enough to do so. Now, I now that there are a few people that have characters who never PvE, only trickle their levels. I congratulate you on this, it's hard work, and the server is better for it. But to rag on those that preferred a strong class build to bash in monster skulls is kind of...lame. If the staff was really that worried about the disparity of levels, they never would have upped the cap from 15 to 20, they would have lowered it, as Snoop said, down to 11, maybe lower. Dungeons and Dragons is a system built around the ADVENTURING PARTY, not the tea and crumpets party. Adventuring and leveling are encouraged, as they should be.

4. "gold is easy to get, getting 100-200k isn't that hard" I've been working my butt off for money, and I play one of those OP casters you all know of. It's not easy, it's very hard. Doing it alone is dangerous, and slow, and in the end, just isn't as worth it as people seem to think. For those that have not played a spell caster, you only gain about 65% of the gold you would otherwise, from cost of spells to run the dungeon. To actually gain gold, we HAVE to group, which is good. That way EVERYone is gaining gold. Personally, I would be happy if the gold income was able to be capped, and prices could be reduced. I'm paying 95k for a +3 bow that has 1d6 fire arrows. To make a sword that was about as good, would cost me only 35k, and that's with the enchanter charging me rather high. Mitigation of income and of prices is the best way for people to get what they want, at a reasonable pace. Heck, maybe we can even have the factions pay the people who are part of them, like a weekly wage dependant on your rank, that way when people say they aren't getting paid enough for this, they really aren't, but at least they are getting paid something.

I like the idea of loss of XP, since you are risking a lot to gain XP that is not readily available in any other way. Loss of items can be rather tough, with how hard it can be to get items, but hey, tough does not mean impossible. The fatigue idea is good, but making the spell failure 80-100% just means that everyone who wants to pvp said caster will just wait for him to run the dungeon once, then PVP the crap out of his defenseless butt. Make it be like 20%, which if you ask any EK, can still royally screw you in a pinch as it is.

I know that this seems like the Devs are just working on content for the people with no lives who grind, but if they get this place finished quickly enough, then they get to work on the content where people who just sit and RP and craft can earn xp to level. I think it would be sweet if people earned XP based on crafting, would encourage people to make things themselves, and not keep bugging DM's to run events and give them gear. If the epic progression actually is implemented and it runs smoothly, I think we will agree with Snoop, and a lot of our fears about epic levels are going to turn out to be unfounded. Just give it a shot guys, if it really doesn't work, we all know our staff enough to know they wouldn't just leave it that way. Just my three dollars and two cents worth.

[ThePaganKing]

One point I wanted to illustrate similar to Torgar is the grind/vs. rp. I like to do a bit of both, but I tend to grind more than RP. Saying that, I RP while I grind for the most part and run it like it was pen and paper AD&D, which was stated many times is an adventuring game.

My point is that there are people on this server that are on the server everyday for at least 8 or more hours during that day. It seems that everytime I come onto the server, they are always there, always. Therefore, they have the luxury to RP when they want and then grind a bit also, to get the gold that you need for gear, pots, and reputation so that you can get better stuff.

People like me and others I know do not have that luxury. We have specified times we can play because we have families, commitments, and such; therefore, when we do come onto the server, it isn't always to RP, but more likely, kill some stuff, get some xp, some gold, then hang back in the pub or second wind and rp a bit.

So, I think many times when people disparage grinders, its because they have the luxury or maybe "no" life that gives them the ability to be on the server and do both.

I mean come on, some of these people that are 20th level or close and have all that uber gear, how did they come by it? Even if DMs gave them a butt load of reputation during RP events, they still needed massive cash to buy that +2 or +3 gear...so they had to get the money from grinding.

[Root]

I have decided long ago that I will never be able to beat 80% of the server's population in a fight, so I'm cool to roll with whatever new ways they find to give people to beat me.

[Darkened Skies]

Please try to keep the thread on topic guys. It's not supposed to be about grinding vs RP

[Kaybrie]

I find it hard to believe that anyone would wish to be permed so harshly after putting months of development into their character, unless they were tired of their character's story.

I find that players who are dissatisfied with their characters, or don't play them often because of boredom or bitterness are the most receptive to idea of permadeath. But that's just in my experience.

Do I ENJOY having my characters permed or disfigured? No, it's not a pleasant experience and the first time I went through it it was a harsh blow. Though with my lengthened experience with perma death servers, PnP and losing characters in the past, I'd happily trade one character, regardless of how much time I put into them, for the heightened euphoria of being a mortal character in a living world, over the MMORPG feel that most NWN2 servers like to portray.

[The Butcher]

I am going to echo Kasso's opinion on the matter. Nobody truly enjoys losing months of work and roleplay, but I will submit myself to the chance of being permanently killed to remove the stagnation of roleplay that's often provided by immortal characters, and for the significance given when you accomplish something truly miraculous and dangerous. It provides for a far less MMORPG world, and a far greater story telling one when grand, heroic feats are actually grand and heroic.

[Kaizen]

I am going to echo Kasso's opinion on the matter. Nobody truly enjoys losing months of work and roleplay, but I will submit myself to the chance of being permanently killed to remove the stagnation of roleplay that's often provided by immortal characters, and for the significance given when you accomplish something truly miraculous and dangerous. It provides for a far less MMORPG world, and a far greater story telling one when grand, heroic feats are actually grand and heroic.

Pefect Example: Baragorn D'locke. Even those this caused a huuuuuuge OOC shitstorm, the IC epicness/legend still lives on through other PCs. Fuckin' ace.