Player Input - Epic Level Progression

[Kaizen]

Of course, someone has to suffer as a bard until level 21

this. us epic fighters need vorpal weapons.

[Dragor]

*is frightened by the prospect of a wizard like Malaclypse having Mass Fowl if its re-added*

[GodBeastX]

I do think the epic spells are pretty crazy, ESPECIALLY the vampire one that just like KILLS EVERYTHING AND HEALS YOU

[Cornuto]

1 or 2 levels of figher or blackguard makes bard go down really easy. Its like an less lame version of EK.

[Spacedog]

The real problem with requiem is it doesn't break invis or stealth. Bards can literally just walk around, unseen, while still doing sonic damage to all nearby enemies and healing all nearby allies.

Edit to actually add content:

Anything short of perm or huge xp loss means you're effectively just pushing the content into epics. Doesn't really matter how long a cooldown you add. People will learn the ins and outs and grind, grind, grind.

[GodBeastX]

The real problem with requiem is it doesn't break invis or stealth. Bards can literally just walk around, unseen, while still doing sonic damage to all nearby enemies and healing all nearby allies.

Edit to actually add content:

Anything short of perm or huge xp loss means you're effectively just pushing the content into epics. Doesn't really matter how long a cooldown you add. People will learn the ins and outs and grind, grind, grind.

That's the idea. You're supposed to run it.

Let's not get the concept of "Grind" confused with "Play". If you can only run it once a week and come out with say "500 exp". It's going to take you awhile to get into epic, and I don't consider that a grind in any way.

[Spacedog]

In my experience, it's two, maybe three times that it feels like "Play," to use your parlance. After that, it's grinding.

Of course, that's with the normal assumption of spawns and content. With your new dynamic system, it could last longer. Only time will tell! Though, I won't know. I don't have any chars near 20 anyway. Perhaps my tune will change when I'm the one sitting around on a level 20 char.

[TheBlankStare]

I was going to say that retiring at around level twenty would be ideal. It's an awful lot of work to balance an entire server for thirty levels of content. Also, the power levels available to different types of characters are already so out of whack that only the most powerful classes or builds really stand a chance to succeed. Bards, rogues and martial classes need not apply. (Unless they have a very generous caster along with them.)

As for bards. . . (this is probably just a little self serving but, meh)

Of course, someone has to suffer as a bard until level 21.

It could happen! Maybe.

Bards are pretty squishy and it seems like most of them dabble in other classes so the odds of anyone actually acquiring the Requiem feats is pretty low. Adding these options back in is unlikely to be a game changer for Sundren. Do we have a huge number of pure bards that are on the verge of being able to take those feats?

Having it not break invisibility isn't all that much of a game breaker when there are potions available that let you see invisible things. More than one epic level monster should probably have True Seeing as part of it's make up anyway.

[GodBeastX]

In my experience, it's two, maybe three times that it feels like "Play," to use your parlance. After that, it's grinding.

Guess we have a different definition of grind.

Either way, that's the plan. People go in. Dynamic spawns won't change something so much that you don't learn the content. It doesn't work that way. It's not like the map layout changes or the bosses change.

The idea is to have something you can go into for you and play. I imagine in a couple years if NWN2 is still working, alot of people's "Fears" will be unrealized.

[Kaybrie]

On OP;

Entirely and completely uninhibitedly and reassuringly in favor of perm in epic. Permadeath in my opinion is the best way to keep any server fresh from the get-go. It's what is capable of seperating NWN2 servers from MMO's and it's seldom taken advantage of. Though I've found those worlds that DO take advantage of it, have a subsequently fresher player base, with more interesting ideas and progressive character development.

That said, the most utterly stale characters (epics) being able to bull rush out and get the rusted, frozen gears of their progression moving again at the cost of potentially having to roll something new or put more focus on an alt, is badass as far as I'm conscerned. Even in the case of caster-fighter comparisons if a dungeon is properly designed then the playing field is leveled, as if the caster doesn't take steps to protect their party, the party will get wiped, then the caster will be dragged down in the end.

Personally, I think OOCly punishments like losing exp or percentage sums of your gold are far more dumb then permadeath, stat loss or crippling injuries on respawn or other, more creative means of doing this.

People who don't want their characters to die can stick to their roleplay and not delve dungeons, instead buying epic gear off those parties who DO go there while they keep their 'safe' exp from DM events.

I don't believe in the denial of something extraordinary from those who want to participate by the individuals who aren't willing to step onto the line. Permadeath, perma stat loss and crippling injuries for the win, do want.

[Darkened Skies]

I admit I got halfway through this thread and realised it's very long... so I'll just put my 2 cents in anyway.

I don't like epic level stuff. I always found one of the greatest things on Sundren is that it's kept pretty real. A level 15 can sometimes take on a level 20 and win. I doubt he'd be able to take a level 25 when he's 20.

Add more stuff for the levels we have rather than making room for more levels. I always liked that Sundren caps at 20, and I personally am of the opinion that it should stay that way.

[GodBeastX]

It's not capped at 20, there are epic people, and level 20's will be able to kill level 25's, 5 levels of HP, 7 points of AB, and maybe some points of AC won't make you immortal.

I'm wondering why everyone's first thought is PVP? To be honest if PVP was the only plan, I'd have pushed to have the server hard capped at something like level 11 where it's still semi balanced.

[Darkened Skies]

Just a matter of opinion, I wouldn't be too disappointed if it went ahead, I just like it how it is

[NiryainGwindosa]

Well, I'll first off disclaimerate that I'm not a player of epic levels (One year of PWing and the highest I've -ever- gotten was 11 on any server), and that I'm a base coward when it comes to perming in dungeon. Thus I'd probably never make use of any of these things, in or not.

Regardless, I really do think DnD gets ridiculous around level 20 or so. I am not a fan of epic stuff at all. MotB? Never beat it even though it's far superior to the OC because I couldn't wrap my head around the epic stuff. And these epic dungeons strike me as something that will very much feature a 'first is hardest' approach when it comes to people taking them. Sure, it'll start with a group of fresh 20s going in and maybe one or two biting it, the rest coming out with nice stuff. But then that nice stuff can help them get more nice stuff or others get it with less risk, and then the spiral is made until lots of people have really nice epic stuff. I can go on from here, but that's my main point.

Personal opinion? I think efforts should go to spicing up the 8-13 or so area. So it's not just a choice between the slow and safe Viridale or the fast but potentially very deadly Argyle.

[Dirty Goblin]

What Kasso said.

Permakilling keeps things fresh.

I've had characters permakilled both of my own choice, and as a result of dm events, and simple roleplay necessoty (Progression/Story is fairly important in my eyes)