Player Input - Epic Level Progression

[Raksha]

Add in another vote from me.

Here's a thought: No XP, at all, ever, anytime, from monsters after level 20. However, the epic areas could have their own quests that would give a few hundred XP at a time, repeatable... say, weekly. It would still be a really nice reward for an equivalent effort. So people would venture into the Abyss and similar areas for distinct purposes, like 'kill the demon boss' or 'decrypt the five Tomes of Gnshakxeszis', thus opening up parties to accomplish these goals in varied ways while reducing the incentive to grind monsters for epic XPs.

And another vote for slightly toned-down Mossdale. It really is punishing at the moment, for seemingly little reward, which is a shame for an area that is so deeply ingrained in server lore. The reason you see Argyle populated all hours of the day and night and Mossdale empty is that Argyle's challenges can be overcome by normal PCs.

[Cornuto]

The reason you see Argyle populated all hours of the day and night and Mossdale empty is that Argyle's challenges can be overcome by normal PCs.

A solid party of level 8-10 can roll through the graveyard part getting 100xp per kill. Not to mention the partys of level 19-20s who just rock it daily to fill up their bank accounts .

[GodBeastX]

I believe I mentioned that the content would have cooldowns involved. Your argument of epic truly being a long path is part of the reason we wanted a separate progression from the standard progression. It's not just RISK VS REWARD, but also the fact we don't want people sitting in an area getting 10k exp / day until they're level 30. That's not the goal in mind.

What tends to happen right now is certain handfuls of people have hit level 21+, why? Events in general. The majority of people miss out on that. They might be as dedicated online as these people 21+ but DM coverage on players will never be perfect, it's just impossible. You end up with server plots that may focus on certain groups and the most online person in that group tends to see the benefits. DM only exp for epic+ is a flawed system. So why should someone who has been playing 2 years on sundren be penalized because DMs don't bump into them as often as someone else?

With this system these people can go, with risks associated, to do content once in awhile that will SLOWLY progress them upwards in levels.

To be 100% honest, I'd like a three tier experience system in a perfect play of sundren, but two tier is the current design idea in head. Some things that trouble me with the current method of exp/loot is certain objects end up with uncanny prices in stores because some people have so much dedication to dungeon crawling they can come up with 200k pretty easily in gold, while others sit at 1 - 5k gold constantly.

I'd love more focus on single shot systems, like today you're allowed to do this this and this, you run it, do it, and reap the major rewards. I think economy flooding for gold in certain people's hands is a problem. I think the fact people end up going from level 1 to 15 with mundane equipment is a problem. I think that some of the encounters being balanced towards to super builds of casters is a problem. And people dying so easily in content because of some of these factors IS a problem.

This is an endgame system by concept. It's something that you can aim towards when you have nothing else to do. That's the idea. It's to encourage people to have a main character they stick to as well. This helps DMs and other players. You won't have to hit level 20 then make alts to find something to do with yourself.

It's not a matter of IF we'll do it, it's already planned, it's HOW we'll do it that this discussion is about. I want to clarify that based on how people are responding.

If there wasn't an air of immortality for players in the world, alot of this could easily be setup to be self mitigating based on the idea that eventually everyone's life expectancy reaches 0, but that isn't the case here. So we have to design around the idea the day you create Bob, Bob is in the world to stay forever. That means a constant method of progression for a character.

[Lilene Jora]

Argyle aside, I'm still going to posit that there's no actual reason to run mossdale. The orcs give palty xp and gold for the threat they represent - there's few to no locked or lootable objects, and the random drops are just as poor item quality as anywhere else on the server. At least the duergar have that guaranteed treasure room at the end now.

[caterpillar]

I think in all honesty I err toward the same as Asura and Kaizen.

I agree with them two too and with the DM's too (generally). Always.

Can I get my adamantine bastard sword +5, +2D4 magic, +2D4 divine damage, pleeeease? I really need it!

[GodBeastX]

Argyle aside, I'm still going to posit that there's no actual reason to run mossdale. The orcs give palty xp and gold for the threat they represent - there's few to no locked or lootable objects, and the random drops are just as poor item quality as anywhere else on the server. At least the duergar have that guaranteed treasure room at the end now.

We're already looking into these issues in general and have plenty of plans of actions to get this stuff corrected. They're not always talked about in general forums but we devs talk about it all the time. It's not a coincidence you'll see me on player client once in awhile trying content and looking around.

I spent 7000 gold on +1 AC boots... I thought that was ludicrous myself. I killed a crap ton of demons and a boss, coming up with a few coins I thought had 0 thrill factor or reward.

These are factors we consider. I think my message to Doubt while he was watching me was "Damn this loot is shitty."

I think people recall early sundren where we had random magic item drops and more. Those systems still exist, but we need a way of getting a generalized balance in what people recieve so that ted being in dungeons constantly doesn't have 100x as much loot as Bob who enjoys socializing online too. And I think quests/Automated events/and systems of mitigation need to come into play so that Ted may only end up with as much 1.5x as much as Bob.

Having a balanced handle on these rewards helps us open it up for everyone in general. If we can say with 90% accuracy the average gold income per person is 1000 gold a week or even a day, we can change prices in stores to reflect the time we imagine some needs to take to get something. That's an example.

[TakenByTheStormX]

I like this idea.

[roguethree]

Different topic for a different thread.

Additional suggestion:

Make penalties incurred from epic-failing avoidable with the use of a signus.

Reward Ideas:

1. XPz
2. Ph@t lootz
3. Signus
4. My favorite: Clearing the dungeon for the first time nets you a token. This token is redeemable to a merchant and lets you choose one (1) item from a list of powerful goodies. You can only get the token the first time you complete the dungeon, so you'd get 1 from each epic dungeon that ends up in the server. (This is straight from Guild Wars.) Make the tokens and items tradeable.

Penalty Ideas:

1. Permadead
2. Perma-stat decrease
3. Loss of Inventory
4. Significant XP Loss
5. Loss of Faction Reputation (epic fail, bro)

[Sypthe]

We're already looking into these issues in general and have plenty of plans of actions to get this stuff corrected. They're not always talked about in general forums but we devs talk about it all the time. It's not a coincidence you'll see me on player client once in awhile trying content and looking around.

I spent 7000 gold on +1 AC boots... I thought that was ludicrous myself. I killed a crap ton of demons and a boss, coming up with a few coins I thought had 0 thrill factor or reward.

These are factors we consider. I think my message to Doubt while he was watching me was "Damn this loot is shitty."

I think people recall early sundren where we had random magic item drops and more. Those systems still exist, but we need a way of getting a generalized balance in what people recieve so that ted being in dungeons constantly doesn't have 100x as much loot as Bob who enjoys socializing online too. And I think quests/Automated events/and systems of mitigation need to come into play so that Ted may only end up with as much 1.5x as much as Bob.

Having a balanced handle on these rewards helps us open it up for everyone in general. If we can say with 90% accuracy the average gold income per person is 1000 gold a week or even a day, we can change prices in stores to reflect the time we imagine some needs to take to get something. That's an example.

I like the ideas, I really do - the only problem I have with perma-kills is that you're handicapping us non-grinders. Let's face it: if you don't grind, your equipment is going to be distinctly less good than that of others. Already, I find the challenges as I experience them vastly differing from others.

For whom is this going to be challenging? The best-equipped 20's, or the worst? It sounds to me like it's going to be SUCH a challenge, that you require good gear to even GO there. Which would mean, in the end, that only those with already good gear, would get the better gear.

It's a bit like raiding in WoW in that respect. I don't think adding permadeath is a good idea. You might find all the heavily-RP'd characters finding perma-death, and only the more grind-oriented characters at L21+.

[GodBeastX]

Already said I'm not doing permakills, despite Dain volunteering himself and Clive for death

[Sypthe]

Different topic for a different thread.

Additional suggestion:

Make penalties incurred from epic-failing avoidable with the use of a signus.

Reward Ideas:

1. XPz
2. Ph@t lootz
3. Signus
4. My favorite: Clearing the dungeon for the first time nets you a token. This token is redeemable to a merchant and lets you choose one (1) item from a list of powerful goodies. You can only get the token the first time you complete the dungeon, so you'd get 1 from each epic dungeon that ends up in the server. (This is straight from Guild Wars.) Make the tokens and items tradeable.

Penalty Ideas:

1. Permadead
2. Perma-stat decrease
3. Loss of Inventory
4. Significant XP Loss
5. Loss of Faction Reputation (epic fail, bro)

Sorry for 2 posts in a row - but I didn't want to edit the above.

I love the idea of dropping people's stats drastically as a penalty, for a while. Love it. I'm sure we can all think of the implications without me wasting fifteen pages detailing them all.

[ThePaganKing]

There were a couple ideas that I think hold merit.
1. Have the penalty be random, let the dice decide. As to the penalties, I agree that perma-death can be drastic, especially when you have spent so much time on that character, but hey, risk=reward.
2. I like the token idea, because really, what is the chance that you go through the dungeon and you will get the exact +5 sword that your character actually uses, unless they have a sophisticated drop system that sees you are using a bastard sword and drops said magical bastard sword. Also, will all members that made it get a magic item? The token fixes all that.
3. The topic of epic characters - I remember the same argument when we were all stuck at level 15 and people said, well, it would suck if all us peeps that are stuck at 15 suddenly get over taken by newbs that make it past quickly - well, suck it up. It happened and it will probably happen again. This is the "I got mine, but I don't want others to get theirs mentality."
4. This is supposed to be a low magic game, I would limit items to +3 with maybe three abilities.
5. I don't care if there are a bunch of Epic characters. Man, if they have all that time to be on the server just to get the hours to get that level, I say give it to them. Most people I know have real lives that limit their play time and hours on the server...so let these people be epic and keep going up. NWN2 is based on going to 30th level, use the levels. Some builds only get interesting or powerful at epic levels anyway.

[Dirty Goblin]

I like Faction Rep loss.

Mostly because you know... Losing rep would hurt like fuck since it takes forever to build up

[Lilene Jora]

That assumes a character is in a faction. While presently that 'feels' mandatory on the server to get any semblance of gear, it is not strictly required, and not a suitable punishment in my opinion.

[AsuraKing]

I like Faction Rep loss.

Mostly because you know... Losing rep would hurt like fuck since it takes forever to build up

I'd be for this if I didnt see one MAJOR issue with it.... How the BLEEP do you come up with an IC reason for it?...

person 1: "Oh... you got demoted? What'd you do piss off the Commander?"

person 2: "Nah... I got my ass kicked in the abyss so they kicked me down a rank..,"

I dont see the logic in that...



Also what if one of the price for failure was fatigue, not the kind that you get from crafting but worse. One that you cant use a restoration spell (either casted by your or anyone else) to get rid of and one that would also cause 100% divine and arcane spell failure that way a character would basically be really really really sick for however long it would last (a week? a month? more?) and wouldnt really be able to do anything such as grinding.