Player Input - Epic Level Progression

[Saulus]

Just like to say this is not a time where we review how we drop loot. We are absolutely not changing the EB range of loot we drop.

What you are proposing is increasing the entire magic drop level of the whole server.

[Philosopher]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Raksha. Perma-death because of a lousy connection, or even worse, somebody else's lousy connection, would send me into a fit of rage. People wouldn't even bother risking the area, which would make it unvisited, and useless to the server.

The best suggestion so far has been the forced temple raise, which guarantees a huge xp loss. Not in favor of loss of items, especially given how hard it is to make the good stuff around here (or the possibility of losing something DM-granted).

[GodBeastX]

I can't say I'm overly fond of this proposal. Penalties like that doesn't make it balanced - just erratic and exclusive. Most encounters on the server aren't a matter of barely surviving after a hard fought battle, you either completely steamroll it, or it steamrolls you. The only people/groups that will be able to do it will be the most powerful to begin with. With penalties that stiff, even in a group, one character dying is totally unacceptable for risk-reward...which means you'll either not do it if the mobs crit you to death in 2 seconds...or you have enough armor to seldom get hit and do it in relative safety.

The problem of strong gear availability is something of a broader problem. Let's face it, it's pretty lame that a max level 20 wizard only has a 50% chance to successfully craft a +4 weapon under the best of circumstances, suffering a month and a half wait to try again, win or lose. No doubt the much anticipated new crafting system could relieve some of the woes.

The second half is current random drops - I'm going to be honest, if you grind the highest current zones right now...you're lucky to find even a +2 item...which you probably have anyways, (or better if you're fortunate enough to be in a faction, the only real consistent source of gear). Even if you find an item, the random generation is 'too' random. Sometimes a blue item spawns with only one property instead of 2-3. Sometimes the properties aren't matched to the items at all. Defensive crossbows? Sling of strength? Scythe of charisma? It is a minor miracle to find a weapon with +1-2 eb, 1d4 of an element, and one other relevant bonus.

Before we worry about elevating the ceiling, maybe we should go back and take a look at the rest of the gameplay experience. Making a random drop system that was more generous (actually giving useful +1-2 items for low-mid level PC's, and perhaps +3-ish items for level 20 zones) would be a good start. Next, instead of pure random stat allocation, maybe different classes of weapons would have a limited "pool" of stats that can be randomly assigned, for example:

Light weapons:
+con
+dex
+EB
+physical or elemental damage types

Two handed weapons:
+str
+con
+EB
+physical or elemental damage types

Staves:
+wis
+Int
+cha
spell slots?

Simple changes like this for all "categories" of items would go a long way towards making some of what drops even remotely useful. As a sidenote, some things don't randomly drop at all right now - I'm pretty sure staves don't exist at all, for example.

This is mostly off topic in general, however I agree with all your points. There is already work going to be done on this front.

One cannot deny that this is a game in the end of the day. While we try to add a level of realism, you cannot deny that fact. Some people enjoy playing the dungeon crawler, others enjoy social aspects.

Much of the content will likely take the whole of the character into account however. We're getting many systems in lately that can take advantage of a plethora of abilities. You may find things in these epic locations that might use something unexpected, knowledge skills, diplomacy, intimidate... it need not all be sword swinging to be epic content.

The current exp method will still remain and people too wary to enter aren't barred from ever reaching epic level. DM plots and such will still reward 20+ people as it does now, however, people who hit level 20 shouldn't necessarily feel like they've reached the end of the game. I, for one, enjoy going out and playing the fact the game is called "Dungeons" and "Dragons" and I imagine there's many others who feel the same and would love to go into something like this.

But yes, we're well aware of steam rolling and problems with loots that people can acquire. Throughout Sundren's history we've has people wish to assist on this regard and end up doing nothing. This is something we've been slowly trying to remedy. The new spawn system I'm working on, for example, will allow us MUCH greater control over how monsters arrive and give things like dynamic loot locations, dynamic traps, dynamic locked objects and more. We've also gained more skill at creating content in general since alot of what's been put in has come in.

So while your argument is valid for the lower stuff, it should not be mutually exclusive. obviously we'll need to get people setup with the right rewards from levels 1 to 20 before we can drop them into level 21 hard mode.

[grant]

I hate the death system now, dislike the lethality of some of the areas that are cleric/FS balanced now. I would not bother with it. No reward is worth any of the proposed risks.

[Silas North]

I agree with Raksha on just about everything she stated, though I do not believe the lore mechanics would be an issue. That may because I look to novels for lore (not textbooks) which pretty much go by the dramatic weight of the moment to discern whether or not a character survives his or her injuries after being bombared by divine magicks, etc, etc. That being the case, one could easily claim these epic dungeons are 'dramatic enough' places for a character to fall.

However, that does not change the weight of permadeath in itself game mechanic-wise. I am for perma, and in fact think it should be used more often, but am kind of iffy about making it transpire in a mere dungeon crawl where connection issues may be a problem. The fact that groups will be a must-have in this place, increases the odds of connection issues occuring. I know the server in itself cannot, and should not, be expected to compensate for other people's connection problems. However, I still feel this may be a problem worth mentioning.

I also have to agree with Raksha regarding builds. While I don't think things are THAT bad overall, adding an epic dungeon now would only encourage an increase in a very narrow line of builds, which will make us more like the Baldur's Gate server (which I know makes many of you shudder). Now these so-called 'powerbuilds' can be rped just as well as 'gimp-builds' when in the right hands, but a more diverse cast still makes for better rp and better dungeon crawls overall. Balancing things would encourage diversity.

I say balance the classes and spells out a little more and THEN add an epic dungeon.

[GodBeastX]

Probably won't perm people for this. I added it to the list to see how people would take it, doesn't seem like it's in people's flavor.

[GodBeastX]

And I see people saying Perm should happen more often in various threads, but I have to date had only like, One perm in Sundren, that the player was okay with.

Players always want the right to perm themselves, but they never go for it. As far as I'm concerned from my point of view, every character in Sundren is immortal. I'd rather have an automatic perm system than put the weight on DMs to deal with backlash.

[Philosopher]

I'm of a similar mind as GBX. People want the right to perm themselves, but don't want the right of a DM to perm them, and I think that's entirely reasonable. Do you really want a DM to come up with a quest that ends in the unexpected death of one of your characters?

Only time I think perm should ever come up is when the player (not the DM) puts themselves into a situation that is simply too unrealistic or game-breaking to survive. This doesn't mean that a character should be permed from failing in a DM event somewhere (unless the DM states beforehand that perm is a possible consequence in one of their events). It means a character should be permed for putting their own damn selves in a bad situation.

[Silas North]

And I see people saying Perm should happen more often in various threads, but I have to date had only like, One perm in Sundren, that the player was okay with.

Players always want the right to perm themselves, but they never go for it. As far as I'm concerned from my point of view, every character in Sundren is immortal. I'd rather have an automatic perm system than put the weight on DMs to deal with backlash.

I understand. When I say I like to see more perma, I tend to point the finger more at the players for such, rather than you guys lol. However, it's hard to ask for a person to just let their character die, especially when it's not a 'cool' time to do so (which a player is semi-entitled to). It's one of those touchy elements of rp and a death opportunity like Grom's (telling an enemy to kiss your ass before impaling yourself on their blade in refusal to be taken alive) does not always present itself.

Anyway, back on topic; as for penalties for falling in an epic dungeon, while perma may be a tad much, I do like most of the other ideas. I'm pretty sure I'm not the ONLY person that likes to play a character recovering from massive injuries, even if it means my character literally cannot enter combat or travel for a couple of weeks.

[Lydyn]

Personally, out of the suggested ideas, I like these;

- Extended Death (We'll see you in a few weeks)
- Only Raiseable with massive gold tax on someone (100k to res you? Guess thems the breaks)
- No experience gains for awhile

With this in mind, I believe going from top to bottom is worse to best punishment to deal with (as in, it's easier to deal with no XP as opposed to extended death. Extended death means no RP for those who only have one PC!)

The reason my opinion extends to this is while they are.. quite harsh in my opinion, the other punishments simply just force most people to throw their arms in frustration and log off for the day - if not several. It's true they enter at their own risk and they should understand said punishment, but a role-playing community should never foster such frustration that you need to stop role-playing for a few days.

This is a hobby, a game, and a book we all write for and by each and every one of us. I have never, and will never believe, that you should punish player's characters for doing what they're designed to do.

There's always the flip side of the coin, those that concentrate more on their ability to level, powerbuild, and acquire items more than role-play, but you will always have such people. It is something that, in my opinion, must be tolerated [to a point].

If anything, foster these epic areas for role-play. Throw in baddies, like D&D is supposed to have, with the villains to conqueror and the angels to destroy (for evil PCs) ... but never forget to include those that are powerful in more subtle ways, by sneaking, locks, knowledge, talking, being intelligent and wise.

That's my two cents.

[Dirty Goblin]

Without some heavy consequences, you may as well take the epic reward item, coat it in honey, toss it in a bag with a dozen others and toss 'em haphazard to all the pc's of suitable level for that area.

Consequences make that epic item epic, because not everyone can get it. It's rare, and a status symbol.

[Zorkaplex]

I like the idea of possibly not being able to get XP but I think that the most reasonable option would be the Extended Death option. It allows for a fair punishment but won't completely end a character.

The only thing that I would have to say is kinda a downer is that there will be an emergence of a lot more epic level characters. While in some ways its good but in other ways I would not really look forward to tons of supposedly god-like PCs running about. Though if the system is balanced right it could provide a great new experience to players. Good up the good work and great ideas!

[roguethree]

I'm fine with the permadeath. You don't want perm'd, don't do the dungeon. High risk = high reward. You gotta risk it for the biscuit. Put it on the line. Lay it all out. Don't hold anything back. Balls to the wall. Pedal to the metal.

Besides, wouldn't it be LOL if Clive or I got perm'd in an epic dungeon?

[TakenByTheStormX]

I would LOL as I took the place of most awesome paladin.

[richardleitch5]

ok the punishments are all almost compleatly pointless and voide.

no xp gain for set time, at level 20 you need a DM to give you XP or this huntzone that will hold less fear as you can get a good item and no penity as you alreade cant get more XP.

extended dead time, if its a compleat slaghter everyone in your party will be on the long turm dead list as they have to wait for another party to find the corps (unless they have a signus) and that can take weeks.

PERM, no one wants it in a hunt zone but really it is already in them all after you hit level 10-13? if people cant "find" your corps you are as good as permed, may be a bad example but i have seen a lot of high-ish level dead in the socopblear (cant spell it wont look it up, place where all the dead people end up) people dont need to be logged on to be rezzed but it seems most will just put them out of the way in this place instead and as no one seems to look there....

i would consider the new crafting to be more usefull, or revamping the item drop so it makes more sence. Adding skill use to the existing hunting zones gets all my support as i love going up the cartell mounting and falling off the rope bridges, or down the slippery sloaps if i wounder to close.

last but by all meens least, my level 20 cleric cant survive in most level 10 hunt zones so i may be onesided here.