A Little Bit of Clarification About Banites

[AsuraKing]

I believe that if a Paladin kills an evil person after they have detected evil, they should earn good points. But without providing proof of the evil person's wrong doings, they would have earned themselves a lot of chaotic points. They wont be able to continue their path as a Paladin if they did this. I could be very wrong, but at least that's how I feel about it. DMs however, always get the final say.

I gotta agree with Uglyman here, i don't see why a paladin would go evil if they smited someone who has an evil aura, but if it's out of the blue with no proof of the evil person eating babies they should end up going chaotic, not evil.

[Kangleton]

If I recall, the actual reason for Paladins not being able to smite evil all the time is because, even if someone comes off as evil, it could be for past deeds only. Someone in the middle of repenting would still have evil on them, so you could be killing someone on the road to redemption or salvation.

[Gamling]

And considering Sundrens history with Banites? And the Black Hand? You can already assume a Banite is evil + in the Black Hand. Which is an illegal organization. Even if a Banite has his papers no one has to like or respect him.

And I don't imagine Sundren guards are too quick to leap to a Banites defense.

[Darkened Skies]

And considering Sundrens history with Banites? And the Black Hand? You can already assume a Banite is evil + in the Black Hand. Which is an illegal organization. Even if a Banite has his papers no one has to like or respect him.

What I was trying to point out in the original post is that players do not represent the main population of the world, just the "get up and go" activist types. By differentiating between the players and the unrepresented NPCs, you are metagaming that this person must be a part of the Black Hand because that's the trend of players. The general populace would have a large number of people who worship Bane and don't go out doing evil shit, and dispise the Black Hand for the bad name they give them.

And nowhere does it say that you have to like or respect them

And in response to a few other comments, someone showing up as "evil" through a detect spell is really more OOC info than IC. Someone's alignment doesn't truly exist in game, people are the result of their actions, not the result of the alignment slider.

Also, please note that just because someone's a paladin, that doesn't alter the fact that murder is evil, not chaotic. I'm not giving them chaotic points just because their God told them to do it.

[Lydyn]

I feel moved to quote from the Book of Exalted Deeds once more, the source in which D&D basis all pure good acts from. In essence, one should not seek out evil for the purpose that it's evil. If a Banite has done no wrong, it's not exactly a good act to slay them because they're evil.

[roguethree]

Someone's alignment doesn't truly exist in game, people are the result of their actions, not the result of the alignment slider.

But those actions determine the alignment slider. Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil are clearly defined in DnD, especially in the Forgotten Realms. Good and Evil are tangible things in the FR.

[Kaybrie]

"We can't smite that Drow, it might be Drizz't do Urden!"
"No, stop being so impolite around that half demon, there's a chance he worships Ilmater."
"Even though Bane and every known banite in the world is an evil megalomaniac, we should treat this one nicely, cause he might not be a bad guy."

It sounds dumb no matter what spin you put on it.

I never got why (Not pointing any fingers) people would say that players should role play racist stances toward races like Tieflings, Drow, etc. Then say that worshiping demons, evil gods, being a warlock or actually BEING EVIL isn't much a reason to treat them differently.

That's my take on this thread anyways.

[Darkened Skies]

Good and Evil are tangible things in the FR.

Meaning no disrespect, we're just going to have to disagree on that.

"Even though Bane and every known banite in the world is an evil megalomaniac, we should treat this one nicely, cause he might not be a bad guy."

I've already made my point about "Known" and unrepresented Banites. Watch your tone please Kasso, this is a forum for open discussion.

[Lothoir]

If Good and Evil don't exist in the Forgotten Realms then how does one explain the existence of the Detect Alignment and Smite Good/Evil abilities?

[Kaizen]

Meaning no disrespect, we're just going to have to disagree on that.

With abilities like "Smite Evil" "Detect Evil" "Smite Good" "Detect Good" ... how can good and evil not be tangible?

Edit: Lothoir - beat me to it.

[Gamling]

No disrespect but it's not really something you can argue. Evil and good do exist. Otherwise paladins wouldn't be able to smite, or blackguards. Detect evil is an ability paladins get and it is used to detect evil. Simple as that.

[Kaybrie]

If it's a forum for open discussion why are you telling me to watch my tone on expressing my opinion?

Your initial post seems to go into great detail about good people smiting evil as being an evil act. So why disagree with roguethree about evil and good not existing?

In the spirit of open discussion, I'll put it bluntly. Evil and Good are alignments that are earned through being an intentional asshole or making personal sacrifices for others. Having an evil alignment means that you've done horrible things, detect evil exists for paladins and they're encouraged in game by a number of DM's to use and act on it. You don't personally think that good or evil exist, and that's fine, but it's an opinion that as far as I'm aware does not reflect the staff stance on this. Ergo, these things exist in game and are encouraged to be acted upon, conflict is an inevitability and the single greatest driving force on any successful Neverwinter Nights 2 server to date.

[richardleitch5]

me mighty paladin cast "detect EVIL"
DM - the man near the box of kittens is EVIL
me mighty paladin - say what? but he is just looking at a box of kittens thats not very EVIL

As already said people follow a lot of gods depending on what there doign that day so when someone walks into a dark cave to shelter from the rain it may well be acceptable for them to say "please dear BANE dont let this be something nasty" or some other thing that fits better.

Add that to how we "expect" things to be, how many half-orcs have been evil? the ones i seen are more friendly than most hins and that to my mind is.....well the wrong way around. By the right of PC actions do we stop killing the orcs in the hunting zones and play nice? do we ask for a hunt zone that reflects the PCs actions and lets us kill the EVIL hin population?

[Kaybrie]

Anywho, my opinion on any of this is that it's up to an individual PLAYER as to how they choose to have THEIR character react to the knowledge of someone being evil or a Banite, Cyrist, Malarite or whatever. DM's telling players or players telling others how to react generally is received for one day then the players go back to having fun their way. This is why I like Sundren, because there aren't many rules enforcing people how to role play so long as it's tasteful and not griefing. Especially since most people seem to have a fairly good understanding of how to RP online and I see exemplary role play whenever I log in to Sundren, and mature handling of situations involving evil-good or law-chaos conflict, with the exception of a few instances. Which is more then other servers can say with their staffs posting outright threats on the forums to ban players doing this, or alternatively large swarms of high level players griefing low level players for religious or idealogical differences. Sundren remains up there with the majority of the player population being mature and forthright about dealing with problems in the correct manner. And that's why I've chosen to come back to Sundren time and time again.

[MelancholyWinds]

Yes.
I want to kill cannibal hin like on Baldur's Gate.


But more seriously, I'm not sure what all the hubbub is. Sure, Banites have it tough.
But that should encourage the more sly side of some of those Banite characters.

Deceit, treachery, and the like are you know.. Considered evil actions.

As far as detect evil goes... It all depends on the context, and you know, the paladin in question. What sort of paladin are they? Pacifist, Violent? Zealous? Etc.

As an evil character, you should prepare ahead of time for all that.
I'm not against evil characters by any means, I in fact play a Banite alt, as well as a Talos worshippin' alt. I play though, with the understanding that should I slip up, or put my character in a situation with paladins, I'm basically the one at fault because I put my character in that situation, or at risk. From my playing experience, paladins are in the minority, I haven't seen many, hence why I chose to play one for an alt.

Now, Religious Intolerance, I'm not sure how that's applicable to TFR, deities are more clear cut, and their churchs less ambiguous. It's not a case of a Large religion, with a few extremists. Some religions in TFR are extremist by faith. Banites hold Dictators and Tyrants as saints (not literally but you know, examples) that's not exactly a "good" aligned faith, and it's well known.

But in the end, I suppose I don't care. When I play an evil character, I play in such a way that I don't get caught, until I reach that point of "safety" where you can flaunt in certain situations. This was learned through experience on a previous server (Elements of Aesyr) where said character went from a nobody, to a drug-dealer/enforcer, to a Senator in a society of "evil" tyrant folk. So... I like to consider myself "semi" experienced or at least slightly experienced in playing evil, and knowing that often as not, evil is simply harder because you can't boast, you're constantly being careful, and you can't ever, ever, ever, expect it to be easy.

Honestly.. My opinion is that there's no excuse. Unless there's serious metagaming occurring, there really isn't a problem.