Priests vs. Clerics vs. Faithful

[Sypthe]

Hi all,

This is a discussion I've pondered over in my head quite often, and I'm curious to see what contributions others have on it. For reference, I'd like opinions and such, not necessarily rulebooks being thrown about. I know quite a bit about the Forgotten Realms and D&D, and this is more a question of opinions rather than rules (in my book, at least).

The question is about the "rank" that is "priest". Often, in the novels and sourcebooks, clerics are just plain called clerics. High priests are, logically, usually clerics. Now, the question isn't about usually , but about exceptionally. My character, as many might know, is a devout Tymoran. She hasn't done the studies and the book-reading to be a cleric, and therefor doesn't get divine spells.

Is it possible for a non-divine-spellcaster to become a "priest"? I stress: not cleric, I'm talking about the profession "priest". Could she, for instance, build a small shrine and lead it? Could she found a temple? What could she, and what could she not, do? I'm not asking for a laundry list of options for my character, I'm merely using her as an example.

My reasoning is as follows: depending on the religion, some churches would allow even common-folk to work at a temple. The title "priest" may be based on, for instance, their ability to perform grand orations, or lead sermons (Knowledge: Religion, for instance, could be high - think of a bard). I mean, not everyone can be a cleric, right? Gotta have some non-spellcasters kicking around.

What do you all think? Can non-divine-spellcasters be called "priests"? Can a regular ol' Faithful work at a temple?

...or is this a really stupid discussion that deserves a lock? DISCUSS!

- Sypthe

[Cornuto]

Simply put yes, its possible.

I think we've got a Bard/Heartwarder who's a Priestess of Sune off the top of my head.

[Kaeldorn]

A cleric IS a type of priest, but a priest is not a cleric by definition. Priests are the devout lead figures of churches and temples, while clerics are their militant arm who literally go out and do great deeds in the name of their deity, using its divine power to inspire awe and influence the world.

Priests who are not adventurers are required to live a life of service in things that are much more mundane. They may or may not have a strong enough connection to their deity to use divine magic, but they simply stay at their temple.

So I'd say no.. you can't really be a priest, as in someone managing your own place of worship. You might be able to take initiative to erect a shrine to some faith, but you'd probably need someone else (an NPC) to be its caretaker or priest.

EDIT: Though as Cornuto says, you could still be part of the clergy of some faith and work for a temple. However, I am not sure if that'd qualify for being called a priest.

[Catastrophe]

I think we've got a Bard/Heartwarder who's a Priestess of Sune off the top of my head.

Priya, yes.

[Sonja BloodRayne]

Personally I don't see why a non-divine-spellcaster can't be a priest. I mean they would be able to do such things as listen to confessions and such. I think it would be similar to what I would call modern churches or monasteries or convent. For example...a convent...you have a Mother Superior and then you have the nuns and then you have the nuns in training. I think here it would be something like that.....but the "Mother Superior" would be the divine spell caster and then the nuns would be the non divine spell casters. That would be my opinion on it.

[Cornuto]

Priya, yes.

Suppose counting someone who's got PrC levels in a class that's specifically the chosen faithful of a deity might be cheating the question a bit though.

[Kaybrie]

There are a fair number of examples of non-cleric exceptional individuals becoming 'priests' of sorts in the forgotten realms, the Mask temple for instance is largely made up of rogues. This is normally accompanied by the character taking a few levels in cleric however, to represent the lifestyle change and the connection they begin to forge with their deity. Elminster is probably a good example of this. As a chosen of Mystra Elminster became very much connected with his deity, he took a few levels of cleric as a result.

Though I'm sure most people would gag at the idea of sacrificing parts of their build for RP. But when you look through a lot of the characters in forgotten realms, most aren't purely devoted to any one class or build. Drizz't is primarily fighter for instance, and only 6 ranger. Elminster has levels in Wizard, Archmage, cleric, fighter and bard. I don't have the book handy but there are a fair number of other examples of this same trend. Though some of the more prominent examples that come to mind are the Knights of mystic fire, a paladin order under mystra, who multi-classed sorcerer or wizard quite frequently in with their paladin levels, then go eldritch knight.

In my opinion, ones build should reflect their lifestyle, you don't get better at casting spells by hitting things with your sword. Build and RP should be synonymous for the same reason that characters with low int and wis are pretty much mentally handicapped.

[Jai_V]

Less "bigger picture," more "small frame."

In short, looking at the organization of a standard church, any faithful with enough oratory skills and religious understanding can be a successful Preacher/Religious Master of Ceremonies. As far as "Priest" goes, I always thought of that (and this is just my opinion) as a calling someone truly devoted (and thus, having Cleric or some other divine caster levels) would be titled with.

I feel like any class can be an exemplar to their chosen faith. Is it possible that Johanna, leading the example of a charmed life and spreading daily the gospel of Lady Luck, could accrue enough status in the public eye to be considered a worthy Mistress of Ceremonies within the Fellowship of Tymora? Sure.

No Cleric levels needed. Just a good religious rep with the people, a knowledgeable understanding of the tenets of Tymora-worship, and the ability to make a moving speech to assembled faithfuls.

[Kaeldorn]

a knowledgeable understanding of the tenets of Tymora-worship

*cough* Knowledge: Religion required *cough*

[GodBeastX]

*Echoes Kasso*

[GodBeastX]

But I personally won't let the church call someone a priest unless they have some class with divine connection.

I know of a ranger who was considered a priest in Sundren for example. But rangers have divine connections.

[Doubtful]

Divine Champion being a winner for all those who want the connection, but don't want to class with cleric.

[Kaeldorn]

There are optional rules for bards to get their spells from a divine source. Since we don't have the mechanics for that, using a bard and RP'ing that they do get their magic from a deity could make a character qualify as being a priest just as much as a ranger could.

(I think)

[gbbishop]

Sure you could be a priest as far as I am concerned. Though when asked why you cannot purify food and water your constituents might start to doubt your holy-ness.

Sundren is set in a place when miracles are manifest and your "god" can come down and actually touch things.

One thought I had was take a look at the average cleric charisma. I bet you find something around 10... Not a lot of proselytizers around. I think many churches would employ great orators even if they did not posses the ability to manifest divine energies.

[gbbishop]

And, good point kael!