Question about Necromatic Animation/creation & Warlock's

[Grigori]

Actually, I wasn't talking about you, I was commenting on some comments another person in the thread made right before I posted that.

As far as the "purple magic"... Do we really need to make a list of all the purple spells in the game? Granted, the ranged attack is one thing... the self buffs are another. I've been buffing myself away from another group of folks when one ran up and went Woah... a Warlock, in public!!! I basically went ooc and asked him how in the nine hells he was even close to being able to tell what I was... and if a Fighter has that much spellcraft, I have to wonder about the character itself...

Granted, in-game, the character mumbles some arcane crap... but honestly, do you think warlocks would be so crude as to not develop ways to use their power without words? It baffles me that we are so stuck on the in-game visuals that we can't play outside them... Now, I'm not saying I want life easier as a warlock. I chose the profession, I know what sort of backlash it has... but I AM concerned about this ooc metagamed hatred and bandwagon that people seem to be jumping on. They are more worried about the purple lights coming from his hands than they are the glowing stones, ashen skin, and jagged tattoos...

Just because you can recognise arcane spells doesnt mean you recognise all other types of magic be it divine or infernal. So, your character is prejudice against all warlocks without finding out whether or not they are a destructive bastard or have some other sort of plans in place? That's all fine and dandy... but it doesn't explain the assumptions and the rulemongering being thrown around.

You have to understand, the fine line between metagaming and in character assumption is a thin one... and honestly, if you had roleplayed out with logical reasoning why you decided to label me as such, or had even tried to be subtle about it, I may have not reacted the way I did... it's the casual way the labels are being thrown around that annoys the ever living you know what out of me... and it's getting old... Honestly, I fight with my hand-weapons more than I fight with my eldritch blasts... I have just as many fighter levels as I do warlock levels... so, I fail to see how one could casually throw around labels..

I dunno, maybe it's just me... maybe it's a lack of sleep... maybe it's a lack of anything else in game other than people running up and accusing me of being a warlock without having any reason to hate them or any reason to believe I'm doing something bad other than throwing around raw power I was given...

Come to speak of it... aren't sorcerers supposedly of draconic heritage? Aren't a lot of dragons, especially red dragons, evil? Wow... that means bards and sorcerers and warlocks have a lot in common... You get your power from an evil heritage and so do I... amazing...

[valenator]

Come to speak of it... aren't sorcerers supposedly of draconic heritage? Aren't a lot of dragons, especially red dragons, evil? Wow... that means bards and sorcerers and warlocks have a lot in common... You get your power from an evil heritage and so do I... amazing...

Sorcerers -may- be of draconic origin, and dragons run the alignment gamut. The "good" (Metallic) dragons (Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper, Brass) are juxtaposed with the "evil" (Chromatic) dragons (Red, Blue, Black, Green, White).

Also, Sorcerers are born with their power and have it awakened in them, whereas the RP restriction for Warlocks, if I am not mistaken, dictates that Warlocks are granted their power through a demonic (or, in very rare cases, celestial) pact, which involves a conscious decision.

Practitioners of magic that have learned to employ their power without the Verbal component have the Silent Spell feat.

[CrimsonTears]

There is one thing that just -has- to be remembered in Sundren. Warlocks are supposed to be rare. Very very very rare. Maybe something like 1/4th of a warlock for a Sundren region. But we have dozens of them. After you see one casting their spells in their very unique way, which I take any level 1 spellcaster would be able to tell isn't arcane or divine by the way it's cast, and see a few people saying -that- is one of those demon-bound warlocks, it's done and done. You know all those other 15 people you saw doing something like that might be warlocks. Stick around the one you know is a warlock, watch him for a while, and next time you meet any warlock you'll know it's one. Afterall, warlocks almost have a template of powers each and everyone picks, not to mention an eldritch blast is an eldritch blast. Watch it being cast a few times and if you're not on the low spectrum of intelligence it isn't that hard to recognize it again with so many running around using it.

About warlock hate, it's the default reaction. Be it true or not for specific cases, the generalized opinion brought by gossip and folklore is that warlocks are evil demon servants and that's all the people need to know. Good warlocks are a fairy tale like good drow, althogh good drow you will know some people who claim to have met, so they are more believable than good warlocks.

Oh and incantations have verbal components. Meaning you don't cast them in silence. Just like any other spellcasting, they are words of power that have to be said aloud too, you can't "sneakily whisper the words" to have a spell cast.

[Grigori]

Could the dark magic not flow through a bloodline through a very ancient pact made that the warlock had no control over but benefits and suffers from?

Sorcerers -may- be of draconic origin, and dragons run the alignment gamut. The "good" (Metallic) dragons (Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper, Brass) are juxtaposed with the "evil" (Chromatic) dragons (Red, Blue, Black, Green, White).

Also, Sorcerers are born with their power and have it awakened in them, whereas the RP restriction for Warlocks, if I am not mistaken, dictates that Warlocks are granted their power through a demonic (or, in very rare cases, celestial) pact, which involves a conscious decision.

Practitioners of magic that have learned to employ their power without the Verbal component have the Silent Spell feat.

[Grigori]

Guess I'm not the rules lawyer regarding Faerun that everyone else seems to be but I can say this with pure conviction, people are being WAY too casual about throwing the idenfication around... If you are in the middle of hunting a band of goblins, you don't suddenly stop and confront someone about the power they weild... you keep fighting for your life and bring it up later... If it gets to the point that people are allowed to just casually throw around the warlock brand without first knowing something about spells and secondly making the required rolls for it, people will stop playing warlocks simply because they are going to get tired of other people pestering them about it... one of my original complaints was against people who have no arcane or divine knowledge throwing the label around because they see a conical purple power tearing a goblin apart. I don't mind so much the sorcerers, clerics, and mages confronting me about it as long as they roleplay it out.

It's the casual flippancy that is starting to wear thin... and the excuses being made for those not willing to roleplay it out that just want to skip right to the confrontation. That goes along with people's big problem with evil characters. A Lawful Evil interrogator has his place in society that is perfectly legal, needed, and doesnt affect anyone but the target of their interrogation methods. Just because someone is creepy and evil doesnt mean they cant be your ally... it's time people stopped juding characters by the god they worship, the alignment they have, and the class they choose... I worked damn hard to make a character that is immersable in normal society (yes he looks and talks creepy and has a bit of a fiesty side sometimes, but he does not openly murder, abuse, or otherwise harass the population) and it simply sickens me every time someone reacts with a hip-shot reaction...

I know I'm never going to change anyone's opinions about it because people need things to hate and if warlocks are it then warlocks are it. So I'll just drop it and move on... tired of arguing about it to a brick wall anyway.

[CrimsonTears]

Uh you didn't make an immersable in normal society character, Grigori. You made a warlock If anything could be said "wrong", it's how warlocks identified by known reliable adventurers are let to walk around like if they just had a huge mole on their noses instead of not being able to buy or sell in any store, having people (adventuring PCs) avoid them and not want to be associated with them, be the target of the occasional lynching by commoners, etc.

Warlocks are witches during the inquisition, not people who just have a bad disease.

[Dustiness]

There are a number of factors involved here:

Can you tell it's a warlock spell? (spot / spell craft / lore)
Can you be convinced that it isn't? (warlock's bluff)
Will you act on it? (character opinion / alignment)
Will others believe you if you told them? (diplomacy)
Would those others act on it? (character opinion / alignment / accuser's diplomacy)
Would the law protect the warlock? (depends on how much they know / how duty bound they are)

So, you see... It shouldn't be that easy to go, "Warlock!! Let's kill it!" and get the reply, "Yea!" then much witch hunting commences. Either way, spotting a warlock spell isn't incredibly difficult in itself, but it's what you do with the information afterwards that can make or break someone's character. Though it's tempting on an OOC level to run around shouting (and suitable for the more chaotic, paranoid, etc. characters), a lot of characters would prefer to profit from the information or watch the warlock until they're sure of its intent.

[Melliores]

I have to disagree CrimsonTears. Even if they are regarded as such most witches are just singled out out of sense of paranoia - i.e. if you want to apply a paranoia feel to the world you would better start doubting every character around here both PC's and NPC's and screaming out loud that they are a warlock.

Also you can not judge what class or a deity a character has by the in-game graphics. From a NWN2 point of view even if you cast a still or a silent spell it plays the animation and sound. I found it very frustrating but that is what it does - it only applies the still or silent feat to game mechanics but not to game graphics. Also there are spells that should not have any visual effects - such as charm person. In NWN2 almost all spells have a flashy effect just because it is a video game - consistantcy was sacrificed. Domains may be possesed by clerics serving a number of different gods - keep that in mind as well.

From a PnP point of view your character can not possibly know what each and every kind of spell in the world does, even with a spellcraft of 50. There is elven high magic, rune magic, wild magic that alters spell effects, circle magic, tatoo magic and so on. Furthermore there are feats that allow a mage ( an archmage that is ) to alter his/hers spells so they do not damage a certain area or deal a different kind of damage ( acidball instead of fireball for example). That is they change in a way the spells visual effects. Given to that the 20+ domains that are included in the Forgotten Realms setting and about 20 spells as well - I find it truly strange that a character without spellcraft can make assumptions about one being a warlock or not.

From a rules standpoint - there are extraordinary abilities and spell like abilities. Fey, Sylvan creatures, Ta'anari and others use spell-like abilities to cast spells - that is there are not spells but share the same effects as certain spells. Who are you to know that he/she is not using a spell-like ability like a drow/duergar/aasimar/tiefling? Keep in mind that psionics exist as well - if your character can recognise a warlock based on spell looks then he better know what is the difference between the power of an ilithid and that wizard in your party.

Spellcraft is based on feel for the Weave - you can "sense" what kind of magic is employed and how it can be enchanced/undone and so on. It is not something you can study - it comes with time. If you can not "feel" the Weave then you have no way of knowing the origin of ones magical powers. To do such a thing is metagaming and using your knowledge as a player not as a character.

Thank you for reading this far!

[CrimsonTears]

I have to disagree CrimsonTears. Even if they are regarded as such most witches are just singled out out of sense of paranoia - i.e. if you want to apply a paranoia feel to the world you would better start doubting every character around here both PC's and NPC's and screaming out loud that they are a warlock.

Sundren isn't like that already tho. We have probably all the warlocks of Faer?n there

Also you can not judge what class or a deity a character has by the in-game graphics. From a NWN2 point of view even if you cast a still or a silent spell it plays the animation and sound. I found it very frustrating but that is what it does - it only applies the still or silent feat to game mechanics but not to game graphics.

You can always tell players you have those feats, considering you can apply them to warlocks. I always found the class meh and never bothered trying to find out if you can apply those feats to incantations.

Also there are spells that should not have any visual effects - such as charm person. In NWN2 almost all spells have a flashy effect just because it is a video game - consistantcy was sacrificed. Domains may be possesed by clerics serving a number of different gods - keep that in mind as well.

That's just for persistent effects. The casting itself still will have visual effects, lots of chanting and waving of hands, unless you're quickening the spells.

From a PnP point of view your character can not possibly know what each and every kind of spell in the world does, even with a spellcraft of 50. There is elven high magic, rune magic, wild magic that alters spell effects, circle magic, tatoo magic and so on. Furthermore there are feats that allow a mage ( an archmage that is ) to alter his/hers spells so they do not damage a certain area or deal a different kind of damage ( acidball instead of fireball for example). That is they change in a way the spells visual effects. Given to that the 20+ domains that are included in the Forgotten Realms setting and about 20 spells as well - I find it truly strange that a character without spellcraft can make assumptions about one being a warlock or not.

Arcane spells = cast in one way.
Divine spells = cast in another way.
Invocations = cast in yet another different bizarre way.

Elven high magic, rune magic, wild magic, whatever magic, all those are arcane spellcasting. Modified, but still arcane. In the same way a wizard wouldn't ge confused between a sorcerer casting a fireball and a cleric praying and conjuring a heal, invocations are completely alien in their way of being cast. Maybe you wouldn't know it's an invocation, but you would surely know it's neither arcane nor divine.

From a rules standpoint - there are extraordinary abilities and spell like abilities. Fey, Sylvan creatures, Ta'anari and others use spell-like abilities to cast spells - that is there are not spells but share the same effects as certain spells. Who are you to know that he/she is not using a spell-like ability like a drow/duergar/aasimar/tiefling? Keep in mind that psionics exist as well - if your character can recognise a warlock based on spell looks then he better know what is the difference between the power of an ilithid and that wizard in your party.

Spell-like abilities still have to be cast, with words of power and waving of hands and everything else. Seeing a wizard or a tiefling using darkness will be identifiable in the same way. The mention of psionics couldn't be more irrelevant

Spellcraft is based on feel for the Weave - you can "sense" what kind of magic is employed and how it can be enchanced/undone and so on. It is not something you can study - it comes with time. If you can not "feel" the Weave then you have no way of knowing the origin of ones magical powers. To do such a thing is metagaming and using your knowledge as a player not as a character.

Uh say what? Spellcraft has nothing to do with any of what you said. Spellcraft is purely a 'science'. It's recognizing the movement patterns and chanting when someone is casting a spell, or see effects in place, etc. That's why, for exemple, it says to identify a spell being cast you must "see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components", why it allows you to recognize a spell in a scroll without using read magic, why if you can see a spell effect in place you don't need detect magic, etc. You really got me puzzled about where you got all that from, tho

[Haroshia]

What's a warlock? Oh they get their power from demons do they...wow that sucks for them. Surely all warlocks are totally evil and should be killed on sight.

What's a barbarian? Oh they get their power from giving in to feelings of rage and hate and slaughtering mindlessly? Surely all barbarians are totally evil and should be killed on sight.

What's a fighter? Oh they get their power from endless training and devotion to themselves and studying the art of killing. A person built totally around causing harm to others? Surely all fighters are totally evil and should be killed on sight.

What's a rogue? Oh they make their living by learning how to open people's doors, pick their pockets, and stab them in the back. Surely all rogues are totally evil and should be killed on sight.

What's a sorceror? Oh they get their power from the blood of dragons, and sometimes cast spells with no control? Many of them begin to manifest traits of evil red dragons? Surely all sorcerors are totally evil and should be killed on sight.

What's a bard? They cloud and manipulate the minds of others and twist around words to make them do things for them? Not only that but they ALSO get powers from evil red dragons? Surely all bards are totally evil and should be killed on sight.

What's a mage? They often have no moral compass, and dabble in powers they can barely understand or control, and sometimes they summon demons and channel dark energies. Surely all mages are totally evil and should be killed on sight.

What's a cleric? Many of them gain power from dark or bloodthirsty gods, and use this power to carry on their god's wishes, even if it is a vile god. Surely all clerics are evil and should be killed on sight.

What's a paladin? People so devoted to crusading that they sometimes kill the young and helpless they refer to as "vile". They even crusade so much against their idea of "evil" that more people suffer for it. Surely all paladins are evil and should be killed on sight.

What's a monk? Devotees to such rigid order and sometimes even evil gods, that enjoy crushing things with their bare hands. Surely all monks are evil and should be killed on sight.

What's a ranger? A nature loving, city person hating, enemy of civilization. Rangers revel in tearing down society's structure and would rather save a wolf than a human. Surely all rangers are evil and should be killed on sight.

What's a druid? A morally ambiguous devotee to nature who would save 1 kitten over 100 humans. Treelovers who ignore the fact that they're not trees. Surely all druids are evil and should be killed on sight.

THERE! Now do I win at the steriotyping the class as evil game?

[CrimsonTears]

Now if you manage to convince the population of the world of all that you might change something for warlocks

[--chupacabra--]

I always found the class meh

Not to be overly dismissive, but this sentiment seems to be at the base of your debate, Crimson. I actually appreciate many of the comments you've made, and this is an interesting discussion, but the overall tone seems to be turning sour.

As far as all warlocks being blatant villians, I think that might be travelling towards RP-police territory. Warlocks gain their powers from either their bloodline (which they have no control over) or via a pact with an infernal (or celestial) creature. This leaves a lot of lee-way for roleplaying, and I don't think warlocks should be forced into some pidgeonhole for the sake of pleasing a preconception. Not all pacts are made with a complete understanding of their consequences, either, especially by naive or charmed characters. The draw of dark power or years of solitude might well make a warlock become evil or villanous, but that is a question for the player to answer.

The social stigma attached to warlocks is part of what makes them fun. A random guy in the woods who side-steps real RP and runs up shouting 'Warlock!' because he happened to hear the invocation from a mile a way is fairly meta, in my mind, and decidedly not fun. The invocations are roleplayed in a myriad of ways, and may not be universally identifiable; some of the essences would seem to me to be very hard to identify as an Eldritch blast anyhow. If it's a dice roll to identify, spellcraft seems the appropriate roll, possibly lore as well. Ultumately, I think a little more common sense with this identification issue would help to solve the problem and make for better play anyhow.

/my two copper's worth

[CrimsonTears]

I never said warlocks have to be evil, just that their alignment doesn't matters for the general population of religious supersticious folk.

If warlocks around Sundren were as rare as they are in the rest of the world, sure, no one could tell that single guy was this or that, there could be no one who would know what a warlock's invocations look like. It's just that when even the random drunkard bum seems to be able to go around casting eldritch blasts things get different. Instead of a lot of people having never even heard about what a warlock is, warlocks seem to be more common that clerics.

[Haroshia]

Adventurers in general are shiftless folks who travel around the world killing monsters and taking their gold for a living. How do you think commoners feel about them generally?

[GodBeastX]

Alright, this is how we're basically looking at warlocks.

Most of you like to say "They can get their powers from Celestials and Fey too!" but let's be real on how rare that is. And that doesn't mean they didn't steal that power to begin with which is an evil act

Generally, unless you have a high spellcraft, you don't know heads or tails about what the warlock is casting. Spot rolls? Maybe if you want to "See" the actual incantation, but you still need the spellcraft. I'm also of the opinion lower level powers don't show much of origins for spells since they require less ability, less power drain, etc.

Why are warlocks a social stigma? Simple, they deal with Devils and Demons for the most part. A big no no. Even their alignment is counter to Human society for the most part. Chaotic or Evil? Everything about them screams "I don't fit in human society". Sundren tends to be L/N.

There is no government ran Warlock inquisition, but you better believe if someone finds out you've made a pact with a demon to get power they are going to smack your arse. The idea is a warlock isn't going to advertise "Look at me! I'm a warlock! Neener Neener!" for sake of keeping the "Good" guys off their backs. And even "Good" people tend to get shafted by society. Aasimars, for example, are still a social stigma like Tieflings. Even though they tend toward good alignments, people tend to go "You're different, which is not right".

Magic is one of those things that NWN really makes look bad. I garauntee you that people casting spells aren't using the same purple smoke and same verbal components for every spell. Spells are like programming in alot of ways. You gotta get the code just right for the effect you want. Spellcraft allows people to understand your code or write code themselves. If you don't know how to program, how can you read code to know how a software works? Same with magic, if you can't read magic incantation, how can you tell what the person is casting? Granted, there's an obvious effect in the end. "He said some gibberish then a fireball popped out of his hand!". So that person can say "He casted fireball!" but he won't know how, or why. If he did, he'd likely be able to do magic himself.

People have to keep in mind, D&D mechanics are very deeply laid out to the nTH degree. So we have knowledge of all sorts of things that our characters may not know. Sometimes that knowledge creeps into IC world and makes things difficult for people. Magic is one of those things that creeps into play when a person shouldn't know jack about it. Do all the priests of Helm know that every warlock isn't messing with Demons/Devils? No. They just know what generally is the case, just like seeing a Demon in front of you generally means it's there for a bad reason.

And Haroshia, your list, while for humor sake, has a hint of reality to it. People have comfort zones as a society, and if you stray too far from it, you start to become "Evil" whether you are or not. Even chaotic good people can be a social stigma in Sundren. I don't remember anyone in government hugging Robin Hood in the movie.