Well, there went the spleen.

[Fezzik]

As much as we might want it to be PnP, it can't be, I'd say the probability of it ever being is nearly 0. It's a game, and I'm with RedJack, classes should be able to use whatever is available to them. Rogues are supposed to be support cast anyway, but if they can do one little thing to do what they need to do when the time comes, let them. It isn't the Rogues fault that the mark doesn't have enough search to avoid the deadly traps. And Stacking the traps... I don't see a problem; other classes get to stack things (spells, fighters with feats etc). If it was a just a malicious attack and not an assassination, that would be different; and if the rogue/assassin killed the wrong person, well, that's his fault, and his superiors should deal with him for being so incompetent and attracting attention .

[MadSeer]

Your opinion is wrong and mine is fact.
Burn the heretics!

[Philosopher]

My only issue with trap-stacking is players killed by traps are not counted as pvp deaths.

Any player who is killed by traps laid by another PC, feel free to contact a DM to assist you.

[Root]

You raise a persuasive argument, MadS. :P

But still, as an 'I-Win' device, it's fairly limited.

- Requires Heavy skill investment (Craft Trap, Set Trap, Disable Device)
- Significant gold expenditure
- Requires massive forward preparation (Who is my target, how can I get them to go to this place, what path are they likely to take, setting the traps and hoping they're not triggered by monsters, etc)
- Need you to now where your target is going
- Countered by high Search if you're a rogue
- Is countered by your target being immune or resistant to the damage, or having lots of HP
- Also countered by a good Reflex save and Evasion

Compare to some of the other overpowering tactics (Bigby's, Etherealness, Word of Faith, HiPS spam, high-DC save-or-lose spells) and it's really not that big a deal.

Heck, the class it's best against would be pure-caster, which Rogues are already pretty good at ambushing as long as they're not perma-crit-immune.

[Anks]

I don't see how stacking multiple traps is a problem, or how its unrealistic with Rp, Take this as an example in vietnam the vietcong would have multiple traps off one or maybe two triggers if one was visible or obvious it was to distract you from the other. Such as...five landmines/grenades connected to one release mechanism, along with panji traps, spiked boards. Heck they even had single cartridges of ammunition along with arrows set up in correlation to attempt to take out whole squads of people.

This is simply another example of how the mundane can trumpt the mystical and extraordinary. With tactics, planning and time.

[Anrilor]

i think we all need to realize is that not all classes are built equal... stop trying to go hmm, well this class can do this, why Cant my class? DnD is not built for 1 vs 1 combat, its group vs group and the better balanced group will always win (unless DM intervention is involved)

back to trap stacking, i think indoors it should be no more than 3 traps stacked, outside 10 traps stacked, I think outside you could better hide where you place the charges but eventually those little mounds of dirt would be obvious to even the untrained eye

[Root]

I'll just leave this here....


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html

:P

[Sir Kharn]

The point of this thread was to discuss the stacking of traps not supposed "i win" spells. I suggest staying on topic or that perhaps this thread needs a giant lock thrown at it.

[Torgar]

Ok guys, i'm really getting sad here. It's like you all refuse to just give me a simple opinion and walk away, this wasn't supposed to be a whine fest about casters and rogues and whatnot. There are plenty of other threads where you all can do that. I just wanted a simple opinion, either for or against the stacking of that many traps. But to clarify one point, the traps were all will saves, so evasion would not work, and they were will save to resist stun, not the damage, so saving didn't matter. and there was no real gold expenditure for those traps, because i've partied with the rogue in question before, he recovered every trap from the veritas, so no GP spent on his part, and he can easily recover all that he used for free. Oh, and casters do NOT GO AROUND WTIH EVERY BUFF THEY HAVE ON AT ALL TIMES GUYS! I know you all like to think that we do, but no caster, divine or arcane, goes around with every buff they have on when they are relaxing to do RP. Heck, most of us don't have ANY on. But tell you what, just for my own opinion, I'll agree that casters should be able to prepare spells only once per in-game day cycle, but skill bonuses on items need to not stack, so people can't get absurd skill checks at lvl 20 in the 80's because in PnP, skill bonuses do NOT stack. I fully agree casters on NWN are favored with resting rules, but rogues are favored for gear, since you can add nearly 30+ to your hide/MS, and almost all of you go shadow dancer anyways for your hide in plain sight. None of you are happy unless you can achieve a 60+ on both your skills, when no other class can do that with gear on ANY other skill. So there, we've both got something unfair in our favor. So I say limit the casters to one renewal of spells per in game day cycle, and don't let any item bonuses stack. sound fair? And I'm also agreeing with Kharn's post, if we can not stay on the topic of a simple opinion of whether you feel stacking of MECHANICAL traps of that magnitude is right or wrong, then I will ask that the staff please remove this thread, because no one is staying on topic.

[Catastrophe]

Everyone, please, cool it.

[Waverider10]

In the effort of my opinion summary:

- Trapper must use good RP reasons. Must follow PvP/griefing rules.

- Keep stackables as is. Unless mechanics can be changed to make the game more interesting.

- Research whether or not specialist with max search can find traps as explained in Post #31. If not then it could be a problem requiring someone above my paygrade.

- Figure out death by traps by player counts as PvP death issue.

[Intrepid42]

Trap stacking is possible in the game mechanics.

It used to be specifically prohibited in the rules wiki, but this was removed by the then lead-DM about Dec 2009, something I didn't even notice until now. Barring any new ruling, it seems it is at the very least not specifically prohibited at present.

As such, stopping trap stacking represents a significant nerf for rogues. I think it is perfectly reasonable to consider class balance when considering this.

Realism in a fantasy setting is subjective. Some may feel piling large number of single trap kits on a single point is too much of a stretch, and I can certainly understand that viewpoint.

For me, it strikes me as more unrealistic that in a world containing Implosion and Bigby's spells, traps more powerful than the standard Deadly Sonic Trap 8d4 sonic plus stun are not available for use.

Stacking kits to achieve the same outcome seems a whole lot easier than trying to recode the trap mechanics. It can always be rationalised as using multiple components, such as strapping a number of sticks of dynamite together.

Another option that would keep traps useful and avoid the need to consider stacking, would be to make traps like the Deadly Fire trap (25d6 fire damage from memory) more available, and prohibit trap stacking. This would need some dev work.

[Ebannon]

There's been many people who've given their opinions both for and against the tactic. The prevailing reasons against seem to be:

1.) Not realistic to have that many traps in one area.

I guess the validity of this depends on what you envision 20 traps placed in a single area to look like. Since it triggers all at once and hits twenty times, I think its perfectly believable to envision it much the same as a regular trap but with twenty more 'charges.' Instead of a single stick of dynamite, you've got a bundle of twenty. Could that be reasonably hidden? I think so.


2.) Too powerful.

Since how powerful it is or isn't is relative to what other tactics are available in the game It seems like a discussion of these other powerful abilities (which belong to casters) is natural and warranted. That's why people have brought up high level spells and powerful abilities, not to derail your thread, but in direct response to it.

3.) Not fair.

To me this doesn't seem like much of a reason. ICly characters aren't required to act fairly, and OOCly outlawing the tactic based on fairness doesn't make much sense either as the game is rife with 'unfair' and 'overpowered' and 'cheap' spells, feats, and effects.


... so ultimately, I guess I don't see any reason it shouldn't be used.


Edit: Also this...

Everyone, please, cool it.

[Quoth The Raven]

Placing traps in a row is useless.

My reasoning if I were a rogue all over traps would be something like this:

Until the rules change, if a deadly trap that is so hard to manipulate at high levels deals 32 damage on failed save, I'm going to stack whatever number I need to make the stack truly deadly.

On the other side if a deadly trap dealt 320 damage on a failed save, I wouldn't need to stack them in ridicolous quantities in the first place.

[Catastrophe]

Edit: Also this...

Don't make me get the whip!