Well, there went the spleen.

[GRCrush]

BedlamX - I think the game mechanics actually does take in some realism. As was said... if there were 20 traps set then there would be 20 spot chances rolls every 6 seconds(?). If one failed then the player sees the trap and hopefully avoids it instead of walking over it. So a player using the search mode (aka like your troops) should have a reasonable chance to detect them especially if they've trained search

Actually I knew this was goping to come up at some point and it is a delusion that most people have if they have never built a trapper. A trap that would have a normal DC of 21 or higher ( meaning anything average or above) placed by an expert trapper will never ever be spotted by an expert searcher. This is due to the mechanics of the game. When an expert trapper lays down a trap the DC to detect the trap becomes trap DC plus trappers skill level. Thus everything even if the searchers skill level is equal to or less then the trapper a DC 21 trap automatically beats a max 20 roll the detector could achieve and thus the trap remains hidden.

As far as realism in trap laying I am not sure what the magic number would be before a set of traps would be detectable but stacking traps on one local would be similiar to several charges attached to a single trigger much like several claymore mines strung to one clicker device or trip wire and is thus a much easier scenario to achieve then some here suggest.

Is it cheeesy as all hell? yes you bet. Is it a valid tactic for rogues and the like? Hey assassins guerilla fighters don't play by your rules

[Root]

As it is well known, Sonic damage is actually caused by a source of Sonic Damage (eg, a spell or trap) playing a Celine Dion song. The mental and psychological effects that result from this manifest as HP damage.

However, stacking more than one trap implies you are playing multiple Celine Dion songs to the target at the same time, however this would stop them being able to fully understand the garbled mixture of sounds.

Hence it should do no damage.



Oh, and in srsbsns, it's griefing and lame.

[Intrepid42]

If it happened to me, I would feel like I had been the victim of cheesy gamey tactics.

However, I am trying to look at it from the other perspective.

If a high-level caster is attacked by a non-caster, the battle will be decided very quickly. The battle might last longer, but who is going to prevail will be decided very quickly. Give the caster 6 seconds, and he/she can cast Ethereal Jaunt/Word of Faith/etc and the ambush is going to turn into a desperate battle for survival for the opponent. To prevail against the odds, the non-caster is almost required to take both the character and the player by surprise and prevent a single spell being cast.

Either the caster gets immobilised within 1-2 rounds, or the caster wins. A short battle like that would be very unsatisfying for me, but any other approach is certain defeat for the non-caster. Either the would-be assassin uses tactics that have a chance of success, or the caster cannot be successfully attacked.

Also, from what I understand, in this case substantial effort/expenditure was made for a tactic that had no guarantee of success.

Also, the poor unsuspecting target triggered TWENTY "Deadly" traps at once and wasn't killed outright. Whether or not the tactic is justifiable, that says to me that the available traps are seriously weak, and not particularly deadly. To me, a single "Deadly" trap isn't comparable to a claymore, it sounds more like a single stick of dynamite.

Standard NWN2 traps are weak, and especially so in CvC. I believe this has a number of causes. One is that in PnP, the standard listed traps aren't intended to be truly lethal, as that would make for a frustrating campaign. Also, NWN2 PC's get full hp per level, but damage isn't scaled up to match.

I don't see any ideal options here.

Ideally I would prefer traps be altered to make a single "Deadly" trap truly deadly, the detection mechanics altered, and a dispelling trap possible. However, I believe this is probably not feasible from my limited understanding.

If trap stacking is disallowed (again), casters become even stronger in CvC than they already are.

My main point is that a non-caster attacker has to force a very short battle, or perish. A very short battle may be very unsatisfying for the player of the losing character, but that also applies to the player of a fighter hit by a Word of Faith in the first round. With spells that can determine a battle in 6 seconds like Word of Faith/Bigby's/Etherealness/etc, options are limited.

[Torgar]

To clarify your post Intrepid, without me having contingent heal, the traps would have killed me down to about negative 140. each trap did 18-32 damage. So yes, those traps are rather effective, were I a cleric, i would have been dead immediately.

[MadSeer]

To the whole "insta-kill" thing. A priest's Implosion gives a save that completely bypasses the insta-kill. Now, unless you have Evasion and a good reflex save, 10 average lightning traps could kill a level 20 fighter that succeeds all of his saves. The traps will still do around 25 damage. That's 250 from traps a mid level can set without a problem. And as it was pointed out, there's only one save for Implosion. But there's a save for every trap.

[roguethree]

The game isn't balanced. Rogues can stack a bajillion traps on one spot that'll kill you if you step there. Divine casters and wizards can walk around with a billion buffs all day and push buttons to instawin fights.

The kinds of traps that ruin people's days are prohibitively expensive and require a trapper to prepare the battlefield. Clerics/FSs/Spirit Shamans/Wizards can push a button and escape dangerous situations, prepare on the fly, and return to whip ass...that is if they're not already fully jacked with a bunch of persistent/20 hour/40 minute buffs. I get it: casters aren't supposed to lose CvC against pc's that don't have spells of their own, but holy crap it happened. Finally.

It's a welcome change from the full caster epidemic that proliferates the server, and the last thing that ought to be done is inhibiting the rare instances in which the nonmagic classes can succeed.

[Torgar]

Guys, this post isnt' about casters fighting non casters or how casters can one shot people and it's not fair, I'm only asking peoples opinions about stacking that many traps on a SINGLE spot, instead of having just 1-3 on a spot and having several in a row.

[GRCrush]

It isnt supposed to be fair.

An assassin laying traps isnt going to say "Hey I know I can hide 10 of these or more at this choke point but naw I think I will only lay 5 cuz I am nice like that".

No he is going to lay what he thinks wil kill you and one more for safety measure to make sure the job isnt botched. After all he is in the business of killing you for money not taunting you with mild stings of discomfort

To ask a trapper to minimize the effects of his traps would be like asking a wizard to kill the big charging barbarian only using magic missle

I mean seriously look at it why the hell would anyone string a series of minimal damage stacks together rather then one large stack that will eliminate a threat. It is not like I want to sit there and watch you walk take damage drink a potion cast a healing spell walk trigger next set heal repeat. That kinda makes my well spent money and effort pointless

[Root]

You know, the anti-caster arguments are nice (heck, ALL anti-caster arguments are nice!)

But I still say it should be made that there is a specific target for the traps, and not that, say, you're just dumping them so some noob gets killed for your lols.

[MadSeer]

Because it doesnt' make any sense to have that much trap on the same spot ? That's the same issue as a Shadowdancer using the game mechanics to hide in a room with no shadows, or the weapon master using Whirlwind attack next to an ethereal character to force him out of Ethereal by triggering an attack on his side. It's not because you can do it that it makes any kind of freaking sense.

[Redjack]

I think all classes should be able to use whatever skills they have to win.
If you can lay traps then do that. If you can wield powerful magics then do it. If you wield a whompin warhammer of death then use it. It's up to the other guy to come up with a counter.

[Root]

True, MadS, but at what point do you start calling the shots based on 'How it should be' rather than 'How it actually is in the game'?

I should actually be able to kill a Wizard before they get a spell off according to logic and the rules. They should stand there for a full six seconds, until the spell is complete, and I should be attacking them from second one.

As it happens in-game, they start casting, I stand there gullibly, then perhaps start attacking just as they go from Casting to Casts (a process taking about two seconds, not six).

Should wizards be prevented from casting whilst I'm standing next to them, since logically I should be able to stop them?

There's the issue that it takes a caster a total of five seconds to memorise their entire daily allotment of spells, which IMO is slightly more game-breaking than Whirlwind Weaponmasters being able to hit them whilst they're Ethereal, or a Rogue being able to kill them with traps.


Stepping on a good Rogues trap should be a matter of 'Oh, damnit, I need to get out of here, ambush, etc', but to a high level caster it's a matter of clicking their I-Win and defeating the rogue who has the fully-prepared drop on them.

So, my thoughts are fully in the 'Do what the game lets you' camp. Until it turns out this tactic is so overpowered and imbalanced that Rogues overrun the server, I don't see a problem with it.

If Rogues are so OP, why have I met maybe one or two?

[BedlamX]

I have 4 rogues now

Only play a couple...and only one is not at least somewhat a caster (can't help it...loves me some Gnome Arcane Tricksters )...but they're rogues. The newest one has no casting whatsoever. I just don't do traps...just not my style. Hence all my questions about trapping.

[Torgar]

Guys, there are other threads to argue about how unfair casters are, I just wanted an opinion about what you guys thought about mechanical traps on a single spot, that's all. And to clarify, i'm NOT a cleric on Tigen, there is no real "I win" button. And most casters do NOT stand around with every buff they have on just in case they get jumped, Tigen doesn't. if it's daytime, he never had buffs unless he went out adventuring. he only buffed at night, and only four buffs: Deathward, owls insight, superior resist, and premonition. that is it. nothing else. So can we PLEASE get back to the discussion, and not keep whining about clerics this and wizards that? I would really appreciate it.

[MadSeer]

To me it just comes off as abusing the fault in the mechanics of the game. Like using Death Ward and Freedom of Movement to avoid the penalties of a spell like Stone Body, when it really shouldn't work.