Well, there went the spleen.

[Torgar]

I'm putting out a question I was hoping to get an opinion on from the good folk of sundren. I recently, as Tigen, happened to walk onto a spot that a player had lain a total of 20 sonic traps on. Now, all the traps were on precisely the same spot, and are not magical in nature but mechanical. I would just like to know what others thoughts were on this, of whether or not it is feasible for that many mechanical traps to be on a single spot. Now, to clear up, I am not mad that I died, as Tigen has angered a lot of the wrong people and so deseerves to have assassins after him. The question is simply what you, the community, thinks about stacking of traps.

[MadSeer]

I can see stacking two or three traps as being feasible, but anything over that is ridiculous. You can hide only so of much them at the same spot. The ground would just have been a huge mass of gears and wires. 20 traps is as obvious as the drunk chick of the party.
That's my 2 cents anyway.

[07paul87]

I thought traps usually went off if they were stacked, harming the trapper.

[DM_Equinox]

There was a ruling on this previously. Oddly enough the rule PL speaks of is not actually IN the wiki that I can see.

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthr...g+traps&page=2

Apart from that, I'd agree that with each trap added to the pile, they would be that much more visible.

Also, if this occurred on top of a transition, then it is considered griefing.

[Philosopher]

Equinox, you just linked to a DM thread that no one else will see.

[Sir Kharn]

I can see stacking two or three traps as being feasible, but anything over that is ridiculous. You can hide only so of much them at the same spot. The ground would just have been a huge mass of gears and wires. 20 traps is as obvious as the drunk chick of the party.
That's my 2 cents anyway.

Thats my opinion word for word.

[Waverider10]

I think there are two sides to this but I think there should be some limit to how many are stacked or an additional ease of spotting if it can be done.

Problem I see is that game mechanics (damage done) don't allow someone to assassinate by traps unless they stack. One deadly trap will not kill a cleric especially over level 10... they'll just step on it, heal, and continue. The same is true with high hp characters. For a trap monkey to be effective killer stacking is needed. Stacking traps is like a rogues only "implosion" skill... cheesy but effective but at least it has a chance to be spotted and avoided.

[Ebannon]

Several points, a lot of which were made by Waverider already. First of all there is actually an increased chance to spot a stacked trap, as in your example of 20 traps being laid you'd be getting 20 separate rolls to spot one and walk around it. The biggest gripe people have had in the past -- and what lead to the now-repealed rule against it is that it's 'cheesy' or 'unfair' for an assassin to use this tactic.

If there's going to be server rules banning tactics that are cheesy and unfair I've got a long lost of cleric, druid, and mage spells that I'd like to be included because they are by far the more serious offenders in that regard.

[BedlamX]

I have built many a "kill house" while training troops (and others) to avoid booby traps while doing building clearing and searching drug houses and can tell you setting a ton of them in one location and making them undetectable is virtually impossible. You get the triggers for more than one or two in exactly the same spot, they become immediately noticable, even to untrained searchers. I know NWN isn't reality, but some hint of realism should be thought of when it comes to things that mimic real world mechanisms. Now...layering traps in a row so that you hit one, take a few steps, hit another, rinse, repeat...that's just a good tactic we used to keep trainees on their toes .

As to the comment about it is a rogue's only instant kill tactic: why do they have to get one? A stack of traps, if I'm not mistaken, requires the one that set them off to roll a save on each and every one separately. Lots of chances to fail there. Implosion gets one save roll. You pass, you're good. Same with Wail of the Banshee and other insta-death spells. Not to mention the insta-death spells are level 9, so only the highest level toons get them. You could, concievably, build a pure trapper rogue, stack a TON of mid-to-high strength traps, and still take out a level 20 fighter type...all at a mid range level rogue. And the fighter may be able to wear you down eventually, but melee types get no insta-death attacks that I am aware of. So I don't see why that could be used as an arguement for stacking traps.

[Ebannon]

As to the comment about it is a rogue's only instant kill tactic: why do they have to get one?

They've already got it, the real question is why shouldn't they have it.

A stack of traps, if I'm not mistaken, requires the one that set them off to roll a save on each and every one separately. Lots of chances to fail there.

You're right about the mechanics but a fail on a trap isn't an instant kill. They could fail multiple times and live.

[BedlamX]

Sorry...now you're splitting hairs and getting into semantics. One point you say it is a rogue's insta-kill ability, next you say it isn't necessarily and insta-kill ability. And I alrready answered the why they should not have it...it is a physical mechanic that the engine allows but would never work in reality. Magic stuff, I can ignore the whole "reality" thing. Physical traps, not so much. And I don't see it so much as a "cheesy" factor (like implosion and other insta-death spells), more just my problem with suspension of belief having seen this mechanic in real life too often.

One thing I do not know (as I have never done a trapper): does the DC go up with the skill of the one setting the trap? DC to save against it as well as to spot it?

[Ebannon]

Sorry Bedlam, didn't mean to come off as argumentative.

The DC for traps is fixed depending on the level of trap being used.
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Trap

[DM_Equinox]

Equinox, you just linked to a DM thread that no one else will see.

And a good thing too! Seeing how it's no longer valid and all.

Aren't you glad I paid attention....

[BedlamX]

Thanks for the link. Like I said...never used traps in this game.

Now, the list it shows makes this stacking bit even more troubling to me, though. In theory, a trapper could stack a butt-load of traps of varying types and cause multiple saves to be made against each save type (reflex, fort, and will) and even a no save if a holy trap is used. With that spread, the chances of failing multiple saves is increased quite a bit as it will eventually cause a few rolls on the low save. And at upwards of 150 points of damage for some of them, 2 or 3 fails out of 20 isn't that hard to believe and will kill most toons with lower CON scores and low-to-mid HP base numbers (might even take out a high HP base class like fighters and barbarians depending on the damage rolls). Not to mention the fact that, unless you walk everywhere buffed to the hells, a trap stack hits you while not in combat and with no PvP warning. That makes the victim even more vulnerable to failing multiple saves (unlike most of the spells which are usually cast when in combat). I know Ursus has taken 110 points from a fire trap in the Mossdale before. Just a couple of those and he's a gonner. I would imagine non-dwarf, non-fighter types would be in a similar boat (or even worse).

Oh...if you happen to spot the trap, is there a way to know it is a stack? If not, then this is an even more broken mechanic of the engine and should be looked at with more scrutiny. It's total BS if you spot the trap, see that it is whatever type, buff yourself to survive setting it off (cuz you do not want to leave it for some, porr newb to trip and die), set it off and die from the other 19 traps you couldn't see even if you had spotted them. No idea how this works, cuz I have never seen a ton of them stacked.

[Cornuto]

Equinox, you just linked to a DM thread that no one else will see.

Lies! I can see it.