Divine abundance?

[Carbon]

Having been playing here for some time now, I have discovered that there seems to be a heavy overweight of divine casters - clerics and FS.

In my time here so far, I have come across something like 12 people that I have seen using divine spells, where no more than 2 of those actually RP'ing them being clerics. I don't even know what gods the other divine spellcasters worship, since they never mentioned anything about religion.

Now, I'm not saying that every diviner should constantly rant about their god, but considering how powerful the divine classes are in this game, it seems like many people have chosen the cl/fs levels solely out of power reasons, ignoring all the RP consequences of actually being a cl/fs.

What is the general oppinion about this, do people see this as problematic, or simply taking advantage of the mahcinery of the game?
Are there any plans from the team's side to start dealing out divine punishment to characters that have divine levels and not working for their god?

[Doubtful]

Clerics, Favoured Souls, Druids, Mages...

Personally I'd make every spellcasting class application only. But that's just me

Spellcasters do have an easier time of things than other people, we are discussing this very subject behind the scenes and looking at ways of adjusting the balanace of certain things.

I've previously had a bit of a rant about clerics - If you play any relegious caster (Cleric, FS, Druids, Spirit Shaman) then you should know a fair bit of lore about who you serve (though FS and SS can get away with less - They're not priests) If the dogma of your diety demands you behave in a certain way, and you go against that dogma blatently in front of me, then you're going to suffer some consiquences.

It is worth bearing in mind however that not all gods charge their servants with getting out there and getting up on a soap box - I'd grind my teeth at seeing a Priest of Mask holding open sermons as much as I'd gnash at seeing a Priestess of Lliira running around killing things.

[GodBeastX]

Having been playing here for some time now, I have discovered that there seems to be a heavy overweight of divine casters - clerics and FS.

In my time here so far, I have come across something like 12 people that I have seen using divine spells, where no more than 2 of those actually RP'ing them being clerics. I don't even know what gods the other divine spellcasters worship, since they never mentioned anything about religion.

Now, I'm not saying that every diviner should constantly rant about their god, but considering how powerful the divine classes are in this game, it seems like many people have chosen the cl/fs levels solely out of power reasons, ignoring all the RP consequences of actually being a cl/fs.

What is the general oppinion about this, do people see this as problematic, or simply taking advantage of the mahcinery of the game?
Are there any plans from the team's side to start dealing out divine punishment to characters that have divine levels and not working for their god?

You'd be amazed how much people actually do advocate their gods as clerics. FS are wierd though. I personally, and that's just me, despise the implications and the existence of favored soul. It was just a bad way of explaining the concept.

[ParadoxicalAnonymity]

Proportionally, it's true. There is a ridiculously large amount of Divine Casters on this server, and mostly in the realm of the Clerics/Favored Souls. In fact, they dramatically outnumber the Druids/Spirit Shamans. Not that there aren't Druids and Spirit Shamans.

I even know a few people that have Favored Souls, and then just make more Favored Souls and Clerics as their alts. A large reason is because of the mechanics. I'm not saying it's the only reason, but it's certainly a large reason. A few of these players even admit it.

They like the fact that they don't have to wait for parties to level, and they won't feel weak if they're in a PvP confrontation. Right or wrong, it's just the reality of the situation.

There are two sides to the coin. One is the realism of the Lore of Faerun. In Faerun, there aren't Favored Souls coming out of the woodwork. Favored Souls, in fact, are supposed to be especially rare.

Same goes for any Arcanist. Powerful Arcanists are supposed to be a rare sight, but in Sundren, we have quite a few very powerful ones.

But GBX made a post about this some time in the past, that we really can't look at it in such a directly literal light on a Persistent World. It's simply not reasonable, even if we take classes out of the equation.

Consider Sundren. At any given time, we might have around 60-100 active characters in any week's span. 60-100 powerful heroes that could realistically demolish cities. A level 20 Frenzied Berserker could slaughter entire cities if not stopped by someone else of such insane power.

So, in the end, you have to take these things with some leeway to the scenario.

Just to be clear, in essence I agree with the sentiment that there seems to be far too many casters, and divine ones in particular. But in practice, I accept that PWs just have a certain element to them.

Oh, and to the clerics not mentioning their god. I've noticed often people are rather involved with the actual action when killing mobs, and sometimes they just don't have as much time to actually go into the deep details of their character. But when out of the leveling scenario I've seen these same people begin to start Roleplaying a lot, including proselytizing their god and religion.

Sometimes it's just the environment for them. Being in the element.

[greypawn]

I don't know. I feel my assassin can take anybody one on one. And considered casting a spell to buff yourself when there is a possibility of hostile interaction is consent to pvp, casters can be easily disposed of. Plus if I travel with a caster and am properly buffed by them, I can be very dangerous. The downfall to my build is that I can not do anything alone unless it is to assassinate a single PC. Peers often question why I've been level 15 forever. Well, its hard to travel with do-gooders and everybody in my faction is either way below my lvl or way above. But that is my characters build and role within the world of Sundren, so be it.

Also, Sundren is a very religious state. That which can be easily seen with the presence of the Black Hand, The Triumvirate, and the Red Knights. Plus various other temples that stand proud throughout the state. I kinda like doubtfuls suggestion about having every spellcasting class be application only but I'd worry about this turning off new players. How about a "Proven Faithful" feat that can be achieved much like Bloodletter. Where a cleric can not go pass a certain level without proving their faith in game or by an awesome post that shows they've put some thought behind their toons religion.

[Carbon]

The reason why I brought up this subject was actually due to me being a little surprised. I left the old server I played on, partially because there wasn't enough RP incitement as I saw it. The same situation was at that place; too many FS/mages, and too little RP to go with all the uber powers.
So when I came here, mainly because of RP being one of the things most valued here, I was kind of surprised to see that the caster situation was even worse than on my old server.

Spellcasters do have an easier time of things than other people, we are discussing this very subject behind the scenes and looking at ways of adjusting the balanace of certain things.

That sounds promising. Though instead of the usual nerf, it'd be nice if there was instead some enforcing of the RP aspects of the classes and deities and such instead.

You'd be amazed how much people actually do advocate their gods as clerics.

Haven't really seen it yet. I have met a few very good cleric/fs players, but they're still only like one tenth of all the people I see casting divine spells.

Just to be clear, in essence I agree with the sentiment that there seems to be far too many casters, and divine ones in particular. But in practice, I accept that PWs just have a certain element to them.

Well, I can see the point. But once people constantly get their behinds handed to them in pvp, and struggle with the mobs while someone cuts through them like butter, they're gonna throw in the towel and say sod it, I'm gonna make a diviner as well. And then the situation becomes even more absurd.

[Carbon]

Also, I forgot to add, it doesn't seem like the pure diviners are such a problem. Those I find the most unappealing are the rogue/diviner, ranger/diviner, fighter/mage builds and such. They are the ones that seem to do the least amount of RP, while dipping into everything that grants power. And with the practised spellcaster and arcane spell failure disregard feats and such, that is a pretty easy (and cheesy) game to play.

[roguethree]

Not all classes are created equally. Some classes have an easier go early on, some are best at midlevels, and some hit their stride late-game. Yet there are still some that are just ridiculously good from start to finish, like Favored Soul and to a lesser extent, Cleric.

To curb the power of buff-based PC's, you could:

1. Accelerate the game clock, making several buffs last shorter amounts of time. However, this makes life hell for our vampire PC's, and I'd not support that in the least; they should get to play, too.

2. Slow the game clock, and increase the time between rests. Slowing the game clock makes the "1 min/level" and "10 min/level" buffs less effective when you increase the rest timer, making it so powerful buffs and spells become more situational and less "Tank Mode: ON."

[Doubtful]

I kinda like doubtfuls suggestion about having every spellcasting class be application only but I'd worry about this turning off new players.

It would be a great way to run a server with around four regular players... I'll reassure everyone and say that it's not going to happen here - Don't fear!

Firstly, the fact that people believe that the divine classes are currently being heavily used is recognized, behind the scenes we'll go over any pertinent points that are raised here.

However, there are a couple of things to bear in mind - Firstly, Clerics and Favored Souls represent a small percentage of classes on the server: 10% of PCs have Cleric levels, 3% have Fav.Soul levels. In fact the only base classes less used than Favored Soul are Swashbuckler, Spirit Shaman, Warlock & Samurai.

From my experience on the server recently I do have to agree with GBX, there really isn't much problem with people not RPing their classes; what may be worth keeping in mind is that not all clerics are the preaching type, even some of those that are may not be extremely open about it. I can think of a lot of deities of a wide range of alignments whose clerics may not be open or preachy about their god.

Also remember that just because you have not seen that person doing something, doesn't mean they're not doing it - they just haven't done it in front of you!

As for multiclass clerics, quite a lot of PRCs require multiclassing of some description, and quite a lot of cleric/deity combos have much more RP value added by multiclassing.

[BedlamX]

lol...I dare anyone to show me how my shadowbane stalker, Ronon, is overpowered by splitting his classes between cleric and rogue (with a level of fighter to get access to Kelemvor's favored weapon). Same goes for my arcane trickster. Pure clerics/druids/favored souls are simply self-buffing tanks. On a low magic world where a +3 sword or armor is a MAJOR find, casters will always have the advantage (at least later on in their careers). Pure fighters get the shaft on Sundren. It's a known disadvantage and most of us try to party up with someone to buff us when we go anywhere (or stay out of the actual xp-giving areas).

If anything is overpowered, I see druids and their kick ass PRCs as being so. Clerics are right behind them, in my opinion. Mages have some good builds, but unless you do it just right, you can't survive at low levels without a meat shield. I never play druids. I'd love to, but I suck at RPing them. I rarely play "normal" clerics for the same basic reason.

This is how I see it. Obviously, other will see it differently. There is no balancing nwn2 classes/builds. Nerf things, add things, change things all you want, but someone will find a way to negate the tries at balance with yet another power build. The only way to really balance this game is to make everyone take the same class with the same stats and the same feats. PnP lets the DM spawn stuff specifically geared towards the party (note the word party). The game engine just doesn't allow much of that without constant DM supervision.

Sorry...balance and talks of "class x" is so overpowered kinda annoy me since they have been hashed to hell and back. Let's get ready to rumble the beasties

[EndsBeginning]

Clerics, Favoured Souls, Druids, Mages...

Personally I'd make every Primary spellcasting class application only. But that's just me

Fixed. Pure rangers, paladins, and maybe even bards don't need any more hurdles.

[Seheren]

Well, I can see the point. But once people constantly get their behinds handed to them in pvp, and struggle with the mobs while someone cuts through them like butter, they're gonna throw in the towel and say sod it, I'm gonna make a diviner as well. And then the situation becomes even more absurd.

I wont lie about it. I felt that way. My first PC was a Black Gaurd and the second a monk. Since then I have played mostly all Casters. Even if I dont actually PvP a lot of people, it is nice to know I probably have a good shot should PvP find me. Its a rather poor reason to pick a class, however, I have always gravitated towards a more religious type of char. I remember people mistaking my BG for a cleric in RP.

Edit: Not to mention from everywhere I have ever played, Stormlord is SOO fun. ((And this is about the only server they arent nerfed))

[GodBeastX]

I am trying to find a point in this thread, but I'm lost. I felt at first it was about RP, now it seems to be about power.

Roleplay

Not all roleplayers follow the same methods. Some people play divine casters and don't speak about it except to other "Faithful", other are open and preachy.

Favored Souls in source books have no requirement to preach, teach, or basically do anything. Like I said, I don't like the class at all. They basically are just the god's alignment and have the power, why? Nobody knows, even the FS doesn't even know. I think it was meant as a tool for DMs to work with, but in a PW that tool is wasted since there isn't a small party of people to oversee and FS can be everywhere.

Power

Clerics/FS are very overpowered, but this is a mechanic of D&D since they tried to make them more like wizards which doesn't work. Generally in combat there are four major roles, Defense, Offense, Crowd Control, and Repair. Clerics can focus in all four without the need to guide themselves a particular direction.

The only saving grace for a cleric is generally you cannot sustain the role due to it being a duration spell, however, NWN2 lets people rest whenever, and if we put in a rest mechanic forcing people to wait until their "Prayer time" as outlined in P&P, we'd find that clerics would be severely useless for something as simple as dungeon crawling with a party.

Overall

Certainly we have a desire to have balance in the world. Much of what people are talking about has and is being discussed in developer forums. However, solutions to problems that are too quick can be painful for everyone.

[Carbon]

Heh, as for your question of the point with the thread, it kind of started out as a question form my side due to seeing a heavy overweight of diviners here in my first weeks, compared to other classes. So I wanted to know what the opinion was on that, if there were things on the changeboard or if it was just accepted as a fact of a PW.

But as can be imagined every time the subject of diviners is breeched, it quickly turned into a nerf debate, something that wasn't my intention.

I do realise that people have very different ways of playing their diviners, but surely all clerics must work for their gods in some way or another (i'm not saying they all have to be jehova's witnesses and preach constantly, but gods want power and influence or other wordly things, and their clergy are the ones in charge of gaining that for them, thus, they must at least work for the higher goals of their god, obvious or undercover).

So, to recapitulate, I was wondering if a RP-heavy server as this one had any thoughts about bringing about some of the RP aspects of the divine classes, or if they were merely seen as just another class picked for mechanic purposes and not much more.

Sundren seems to have realised that diversity and rarity is one of the most important things in a PW (thus, some of the races/classes and such are restricted, so every character and his brother is not something lorewise very rare, like it happens on most other PWs), so the diviner issue was sticking a bit out from that, I thought, and mentioned it

As for FS, well, you could always restrict the class as you have with others, or even remove it completely. Nothing unique is lost, as a cleric can cast the same spells, but doesn't get all the extra gravy that the FS does.

[ParadoxicalAnonymity]

Ah, the teeming masses would cry out at the loss of their beloved Favored Souls! Frankly, I'd be unequivocally fine with such a turn of events.

But it's mostly because of lore reasons I'd like to see it at least become restricted. Favored Souls are just supposed to be ridiculously rare. Otherwise, if the gods could just start picking anyone and everyone they liked to be a representative of them (as long as they shared similar alignment), it'd just be large god-battles on Faerun between Favored Souls.

Which is an amusing concept, coupled with hilariously silly imagery.

The Favored Soul description in the Complete Divine says thus:

"Scholars wonder if favored souls have traces of outsider blood from unions, holy or unholy, centuries ago and generations removed. Others suggest that divine training of the proper type awakens the ability, or that favored souls are simply imbued with their gifts by their gods when they begin the cleric's path. In any case, favored souls cast their spells naturally, as much through force of personality as through study."

So, if the sourcebooks leave it entirely ambiguous as to its nature, this PW could decide (even if it remains behind the scenes) what the actual source is. Perhaps it really is just a god touching someone. Perhaps it's a coupling with outsiders in their heritage, and without that they can't be touched by a god in such a way. Perhaps it is through the study of clerical pursuits and theological meanderings, one day spilling a column of light upon the erstwhile individual as he is enlightened.

Whatever the case, the staff could decide what the catalyst is for such, and then decide it needs to be a restricted class following such.

As a suggestion, it could even be considered a reward for especially faithful clerics who perform many a good (or infamous) work in their patron's name. Perhaps one day, the fifteenth level cleric is met in portent by his or her god, and granted the boon of becoming such a font of divine power for all the labor this priest has done.

Whatever the case, even if it remains an unrestricted class, the unbalanced power of the divine side doesn't concern me a great deal. There will always be people who play powerful characters, and there will always be people who don't build according to such. Good roleplayers can still come from either of those camps.

It's the good roleplayers that I usually seek out.