Faith Healing

[Bishop Cornelius]

Should we be able to IC'ly discern (Meta'game IMO) the deity of the player via the Faith healing spell?

I think the mechanical function should not be able to tell the caster that the casted-upon is not actually a follower of said deity...

We usually rule on the side of non-disclosure (for instance, assuming the alignment of a char from the monsters they summon)...

Is this not the case with Faith Healing?

Or is Faith Healing also akin to a Divination? Which it should not be in my opinion, but that is up for the DMs to say.

Elsehow, infiltrating into a religion becomes impossible since nearly every cleric in the server can cast faithhealing on other members and rule them out... and I think ruling out a whole plot-range of rp is a bad idea.

So, can I get a DM Ruling on this? Thank You.

[Lothoir]

All my cleric knows is that if a person is bleeding to death, and he casts a spell whose only sole function is to heal those of his faith and absolutely nothing happens, where normally there would be serious magical healing (28, comparable to cure serious wounds) then something fishy is going on. Especially as there is another spell that also heals any one of any faith, but not as drastically.

[EndsBeginning]

Not that it was asked, but I'd like to throw my 2 cents in. It's simple logic really, if you cast a fireball on a red dragon and it's unharmed I think you can safely assume fire doesn't work. While most gods aren't quite all seeing and all knowing since you're asking the deity to heal this person of your faith...they'd likely know, and no spell effect.

If you want to try and infiltrate a priesthood IC You'd likely be best off going out of your way to not draw attention to begin with. I'm not meaning just the bluff skill, but also seeming to be MORE devout and focused than the rest. You'd have to really know what you're talking about. Again just my opinion, doesn't really matter but I thought I'd share it.

[Vaelek]

I'm used to ideas such as that claiming yourself to be a devotee of a god that you don't revere, usually ends up in a brief but very eye-catching smiting from said god. At least in an area that they have power in, any ways.

For Faith Healing, though, while I wouldn't myself push forward the idea of that it can successfully 'read' what deity you do follow, it's obvious if it didn't work on someone they're tithing to another temple.
Infiltrating other clergies, I can't imagine, would even be possible in the long term. Most deities seem to be too attentive and involved with their worshipers and holy places to let a random wander around in disguise for a prolonged period of time.

But hey, I'm just throwing my opinion in before the DM comes down.

[ParadoxicalAnonymity]

This isn't entirely true. While the gods of Faerun are palpable, they're not omniscient, by any means. I do recall, vaguely, the purview of Faerunian deities from one of the source books being rather 'action' based. Such as, a god of torture would be able to know when torture is going on, etc.

But these things are vague, and the lore of Faerun has definitely allowed the concept of infiltrating churches, and even wreaking havoc within such.

A prime example is the church of Torm, and all the strife that was committed under such a banner. It was not just people from outside the church of Torm claiming to be Tormites. It was genuine people from inside that had infiltrated it, or converted during their stay there (yet never left, acting as double agents).

Through such actions, many atrocities and ill deeds were propagated while individuals claimed to be clergy of Torm. And it was even true. Hence the Penance of Duty eventually coming about within the church.

This does illustrate the fact that gods can not, or at least do not, actively read the minds and hearts of every single member of their clergy continuously. There is most likely limits to their powers, in such a respect.

Of course, there are many things left unsaid about the gods in Faerun. It is the nature of most FR servers to play the gods as being very real, and extraordinarily palpable. Clerics, especially, are usually under intense scrutiny by the gods, on PWs. But, again, it's clear the gods don't actively police the very memberships of churches.

Torm is just one example of such priestly clandestine workings.

I only use it because of how enormous that circumstance was. There are most certainly other events in Faerun lore of enemy clergy infiltrating other churches without anyone being the wiser, just not on such a huge scale as my example.

[Vaelek]

I guess you sorted the infiltration question out, Paradox.
Thanks for setting me straight on that one.
My lack of D&D knowledge and real experience tends to show in such discussions.
And while I wasn't expecting the various gods to be able to mind-read every other follower they have, I did assume they had a little more info on their priests due to daily rituals and faith obligations.

The real question to answer though, is still the matter of Faith Healing's mechanics in RP.
While evidently I'm a little too for the deity's all knowingness, if the spell is specifically derived for the purpose of healing a fellow follower of whatever god, I'd assume it's fairly clear somethings amiss if it's not working.
It would be odd if every priest randomly cast the spell on newly met clerics that claim to be of the same, though.
So I'm not sure you'd need to worry about that Bishop.

I'm actually fairly interested in the DM response to this one now as well, heh.

[Doubtful]

I despise faith healing, all thanks to the stupid mechanics of NWN2.

FWIW - Faith Healing *could* be used to tell if a cleric is of the same faith. That's it. Clerics only. Followers are a different kettle of fish.

See the massive flaw in the way it works is that it utterly fails to take into account the whole polytheistic thing.

The engine is entirely built to support clerics, nothing more (FR dictates that to have fav soul / clerical status you MUST have a sponsoring deity, the one god who's name you serve above all else) With favoured souls it gets even more complex - the god chooses you, you don't choose them - it's perfectly feasible to be getting powers from a god you don't like. People are pawns to the gods, nothing more.

Non-clerical bods (and to a lesser extent most clerics) would say prayers to a massive selection of different gods during a day, and even if they do serve one god with more dedication than others it doesn't always follow that their chosen god favours them.

So, no, you cannot discern someone's faith by the use of faith healing as the mechanics behind it are flawed. Consider it an extra special healing method to use between priests.

[Lothoir]

Faerun is polytheistic, however everyone chooses a patron deity they pay special homage to because it is common knowledge that without one they will spend an eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless. In fact, if someone does not have a patron deity it is impossible for them to be brought back to life by any spell short of a Miracle or Wish spell in which case the caster's god must directly intervene to restore the fallen character to life.

It also presents the question of how an intelligent cleric should react if a spell fizzles from his god that he knows will only heal the faithful, especially among the many cults that believe their god is superior to all others (Black Hand, Cyricists, etc)

And finally, Faith Healing is a spell from the Magic of Faerun source book and in there it also only heals those that share your god as their patron. So I have a difficult time seeing how the mechanics of NWN2 are interfering with the mechanics of the spell as it was originally written when this is one of the few things that works exactly as it does in Pen and Paper.

[Doubtful]

Various cannon sources state that the god chooses, not the person. Then again, other also cannon sources say that a person elects to follow a god of their choosing. Ho hum, it'd be to much to ask for non contradicting source material.

Still, you've allowed me to revise my opinion from 'the NWN2 mechanic is flawed' to 'the campaign mechanics are flawed'

[Bishop Cornelius]

Vaelek: Well apparently I did need to worry about it because that's exactally what happened.

[Vaelek]

Vaelek: Well apparently I did need to worry about it because that's exactally what happened.

Someone just cast it on you out of the blue, entirely random happenchance?

If a fellow cleric casts the spell on you for the sole purpose of divining what deity you follow, I'm assuming you can call that, if not metagaming, at least not very nice role play. I was under the impression the situation you fell into was one wherein you were injured and a cleric cast it on you, and got a nasty shock when it didn't take effect.

Though from Doubtful's post I'm left a little confused about the actual verdict on this.
..But maybe it's time I stopped posting and waited for a few DMs to talk it over, or something.


Just taking an interest in this because I use the spell fairly often, myself, and that includes on fellow faction members where necessary.

[Pacwolf]

So, no, you cannot discern someone's faith by the use of faith healing as the mechanics behind it are flawed. Consider it an extra special healing method to use between priests.

Because I was there, I'm going to throw in my two cents. I disagree with this statement, almost completely. It is a very specific spell, specific even to Faerun, Faith Healing, it only works on members of your faith. While everyone here agrees it would be cheesy to go around casting it on EVERYONE to find out who you have a deity in common with, if a character who KNOWS the spell, and is BLESSED by their deity enough to channel the power of their divine will in the world, and by means of that channelling the cleric KNOWS that this spell either works, or does not, should be allowed to use it.

No one is advocating that it be a Faith Healing free for all, but when a character has enough suspicion, and uses it in a RP fashion, such as what we had here, to verify something the character already suspects (Hey, he/she doesn't worship Torm like I do)

Just because we ALL dislike the NWN2 game mechanics, isn't good enough reason to throw out something that actually works well.

The spell is designed, and advertised to work only on people of your faith. It either works or it doesn't. An ingenious character caster who uses it and then figures out Hey they don't worship the way I do, shouldn't be punished because of bad game mechanics. If that were the case, we'd all be getting flogged daily for even playing NWN2.

[GodBeastX]

Can someone quote me a source on faith healing? I've never heard of it. Or do you mean the hierophant?

Edit: Okay, Deities can tell you aren't their cleric based on Faiths and Pantheons. However, if you aren't a cleric they can't tell squat about you. While they recieve all prayers, you might just be someone who doesn't pray to them. And if you aren't a cleric of theirs, they have no idea what faith you are of. So yes, the faith healing spell is possible from heirophant list, but you also have to realize clerics who can reach the requirements to get faith healing are like 1 in a million in FR generally (Points out the requirements). So I doubt you'd ever run into a situation in standard FR play unless a DM specifically set it up where a heirophant is running around except in the most prestigious churchs of a particular faith.

[Lothoir]

Magic of Faerun: page 93.

FAITH HEALING
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Blk 1, Clr 1, Pal 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel
positive energy that cures 8 points of damage +1
point per caster level (up to +5). The spell only works on
a creature with the same patron as you. A target with no
patron or a different patron than you is unaffected by
the spell, even if the target would normally be harmed by
positive energy.

EDIT:

So yes, the faith healing spell is possible from heirophant list, but you also have to realize clerics who can reach the requirements to get faith healing are like 1 in a million in FR generally (Points out the requirements).

Faith Healing was added in as a lvl 1 blackguard, cleric and paladin spell with the new spells introduced in Magic of Faerun. You don't need to be a hierophant anymore, any level 1 cleric can cast it.

[GodBeastX]

Magic of Faerun: page 93.

Ahh, so it's similar to the heirophant power from Campaign Setting, except it doesn't stun.

Well, like I said above, if you're pretending to be a cleric of a god, it's pretty difficult in FR anyway since gods already know you're not their cleric. However, one thing NWN2 bastardizes that P&P doesn't is the idea of spell's prayed for list. I doubt a priest has tons of those memorized to begin with, paladin especially, so it'd probably have to wait til it's time of day to pray to even consider checking you. It's a hassle. I think a bluff roll success would probably convince most NPCs enough not to have to do something like that, but the god would still know so... you're on your own there.